Alien Movie Universe

Dodgy Starmaps

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zzplural

MemberOvomorphOct-08-2012 4:45 AM
We've been wondering for some time how close LV_223 is to LV_426. This picture shows the location of LV_223 as indicated in the briefing room (I've highlighted the LV_223 'system' in red). [img]http://i48.tinypic.com/2emmreo.jpg[/img] Same picture with a graphic of Orion overlaid (above Shaw's head): [img]http://i46.tinypic.com/m39d5.jpg[/img] The Prometheus graphics are clearly fabricated using a certain degree of artistic interpretation, and were obviously influenced heavily by the actual constellation of Orion. Nowhere near Reticulum. So, a bit of a cock up, I would say. NB, the LV_223 'system' as indicated in the following graphic is absolutely tiny on the scale of the above. You're not going to find it in any contellation map. Ridley mentions in the BluRay commentary that it's probably a system of planets (rather than stars). Of course, planets move around all the time, making it that little bit tougher to find LV_223. [img]http://i45.tinypic.com/2mg2luu.jpg[/img]
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent
16 Replies

Not_my_intention

MemberOvomorphOct-08-2012 10:53 AM
hmm, thats interesting, but i think you might be looking to deep into it lol, i would only bother making the stars accurate if i was making a hardcore science fiction, like idk a star trek movie or something based on Isaac Asimov. alien is a little lighter then that, so i dont think it really matters.

zzplural

MemberOvomorphOct-08-2012 11:15 AM
Heresy! We live for little details like where things are :)
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent

Mala'kak

MemberOvomorphOct-08-2012 3:41 PM
Reticulum is actually pretty close to the Orion constellation in the grand scheme of things... so it is relatively near. But you're right they're not the same thing at all and the star map is made out to look like Orion. The Zeta Reticuli binary star system is located within its own constellation. Maybe the first so-called mistake I can't explain, only because Ridley made references to Zeta Reticuli. Maybe that's why Ridley got confused. Maybe he thinks LV-426 and LV-223 are actually a lot closer than they are just because the Orion and Reticulum constellations are kind of close. I think they were just desperate to connect to the Zeta II reticuli system +Orion because they're used in so much sci-fi and have the associations to the alien astronaut hypothesis, the series, and ufology in general. They may have wanted to tap into these ideas. The so-called human Orion group in conspiracy theories could almost be said to be Engineers, because of how they've presented them. But they only share similar ideas because they both base their perspective off of ancient legends and mythologies, some far more complicated than the Greek stuff. The sumerian influence is huge, they're drawing from all the myths. Maybe even drawing a little from conspiracy theory because of the belief that Grey aliens come from Zeta Reticuli ( mainly BS imo- i tend to lean towards something else this movie may be hinting at...Atlanteans...).

BigDave

MemberDeaconOct-08-2012 5:34 PM
OK did right a essay on this but again as usual forgot to save and we know what this sites like for logging out... Ok here goes a short version... If we accept that the overlay shows Orion lets look at the two largest stars at the bottom, one is Rigel B the largest appearing one at the bottom right it is 773 light years away, now the main star that appears to its right is Saiph which is about 650 LY... So thats a difference of 123YL yet they appear very close on the constellation map. Above those 2 are the 3 that appear in a line Alnitak (776LY) Alnilam (1300LY) and Mintaka some 900LY away yet these all appear really close in the sky. We can move to near by Gemini which is where the overlay posted seems LV223 could be in, if indeed that is Orion shown in Prometheus. Which it does appear to be. Which would line up LV223 to be in the system of the Star Zeta Geminorum which is about 1100LY away... So yes these are all so much further away, than 34LY yet the maps could be of the smaller stars within the constellations that we do not notice when we see the constellations such as Gemini which when we look at the maps shows and labels usually 13-16 as drawn to make the Star Sign... i.e dot to dots... The constellation actually has over 80 stars of which Glise 251 is the closest to Earth at 18LY yet other larger stars that make up Gemini such as the twins heads Pollux (34LY) and Castor (51LY) yet the stars that make up the feet of the Twins such as Gamma Geminorum (109LY) and Eta Geminorum (350LY). So i guess my point is that when we see how a constellation of stars looks on a map, a image or through a telescope does not mean because they appear to be closer together they actually are not. If we are looking at the Star Map to match a Star Map of a Star Sign as its drawn dot to dot, then the Star Map in Prometheus appears to be more closer to Libra. But then its hard to say where LV 223 is, its hard to find a match near Zeta Reticuli, however they say the distance was about 34LY and if we look at the smaller stars then maybe we could find a match? For me however Beta Geminorum or Pollux seems to tick a lot of boxes.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconOct-09-2012 12:58 PM
Hi i think i have solved where LV 223 is... [img]http://s9.postimage.org/ir1gwyfj1/2mg2luu.jpg[/img] [url=http://postimage.org/image/aljeysra3]Here[/url] The main clue was Shaws Notes.... They showed Zeta Reticuli. I looked at the Star Map and found that if you rotated Zeta Reticuli map 75 degrees then yes there are a set of 6 stars that near enough match. I labelled them on that star map, now you see Holloway touch to shrink this map down the star i marked as Gliese 86, and when he then zooms back in to say they found on star that has one planet the star it zooms to is the one in tha map that corresponds to Gliese 86. Gliese 86 has a Gas giant similar to Saturn and is located 35 light years away. I think when we consider all those then maybe yes LV 223 orbits that Gas Giant that orbits the Star Gliese 86

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

oduodu

MemberXenomorphOct-09-2012 4:01 PM
Big Dave Wow !!! I am impressed !! Are you an astronomer ??

BigDave

MemberDeaconOct-09-2012 6:46 PM
Not a very good one lol... I do take some interest and do have some equipment but its only basic... I had been trying to find a connection before, and only Libra's main Stars seemed to match. Until i came across Shaws notes which indeed had the system as I made a post ages ago, in which the distance Prometheus traveled was 35 LY and that has to be Gliese 86 which is 35 LY and near Zeta Reticuli but is not part of Zeta Reticuli. [img]http://www.movieviral.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/shaw_notes_004-580x806.jpg[/img] I never managed to match a exact match until i saw the above and realized that i was looking for matches for main Stars in Constellations i,e the ones that was used to join dot to dot to form the Zodiac Star Signs etc... I also took into account that the Universe is 3D not 2D you can look at photo of any thing say a field with a selection of trees but then if you moved around the field and took more pictures in different places the trees would not be in the same place as the first image. Looking at Shaws Notes, and the Star Map of Zeta Reticuli i then noticed that if you rotate the map of Zeta Reticuli and dont look at the Binary Stars but look at Gliese 86 and try to pinpoint that as one of the 6 stars in the Star Maps and Cave Paintings and then looking at so what can the other 5 be. I noticed there are two ways the Stars from the Constellation of Eridanus seem to line up in one of two ways.... Thus the 6 stars could line up to be either.... Tau 1 Eridani, Kappa Fornacis and Gliese 86 as the main cluster of 3 in a near line. With options that the other 3 are either.... Gliese 95, Gliese 81b and Gliese 59 Or maybe more likely... 54 Piscium, 107 Piscium and Gliese 67 Then we go back to Shaws notes... And she has wrote this by the side... G86-Z2 132.9139 I take it G86 is Gliese 86 and Z2 is Zeta 2. Prometheus does tell us that Lv 223 is about 34-35LY away. Here is a list of all Stars in Shaws notes with their distances rounded off. 11.9 LY (Tau Ceti) 20.9 LY (82 Eridani) 24.3 LY (107 Piscium) 28.3 (Alpha Mensae) 35.2 LY (Gliese 86) 36.2 LY (54 Piscium) 37.2 LY (Zeta 1 Reticuli) 38.7 LY (Zeta 2 Reticuli) 41.4 LY (Gliese 67) 45.6 LY (Tau 1 Eridani) 53.4 LY (Gliese 59) Again only Gliese 86 fits the 35 Light Years of the stars that are near Zeta Reticuli. But 54 Piscium is also close and has one planet but its a Extrasolar Planet and so would be very far away from that Star. Where as Gliese 86 has a Saturn like Gas Giant that is 4X larger than Jupiter, however in reality any moons around that planet would not be idea for life due to Gliese 86 B orbit around Gliese 86.... Then again some claim we have a binary twin to Earth Planet X which if true and its near a close path to us, well we would not be here lol....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

oduodu

MemberXenomorphOct-09-2012 6:59 PM
Big Dave Zzplural At least you know enough to know that they are not using a "real" star system. Maybe the engineers figured that if you can figure out that that the map isn't "spot on " but you can still find out there is a planet that can support life you have reached a level of technology un becoming you .

zzplural

MemberOvomorphOct-10-2012 6:10 AM
I'm sorry, Dave, I don't entirely follow. I'm going to need some solid evidence. Neither Gliese 86 nor Zeta 2 Reticuli are anywhere near the red circle that I indicated. They are many many degrees away in the sky from that location. I can accept that this part is a mistake in the film. However... Some observations: In addition to the oft-mentioned Zeta 2 Reticuli, the BluRay menu has a graphic that mentions LV-223 with Zeta 2 Reticuli written directly below. The implication is that Zeta 2 Reticuli is where LV-223 is. Then again there is Shaw's pictograph sketch which is, frankly, very puzzling. It has a bunch of stars listed, as well as Sol (our own Sun). From what point of view do you think this sketch was drawn, given that there's a vertical line pointing to Sol? The implication is that it is drawn from the point of view of some very different place. Approximately how many degrees across is the pictograph's field of view? You can probably ignore the stars with dotted lines since that supposedly indicates an out-of-scale distance. Shaw states that "this pictograph [Wari Huari, approx 600 AD] is an exact model of the Zeta 2 Reticuli system". Well, it's not. Because it's a plot of a whole series of unrelated stars, neither a star system nor a planetary system. Some pictures would help, if you think you've found something concrete. By the way, if you need to plot some actual star maps, you may care to visit http://www.aavso.org/vsp Plots 9043PJ, 9045AT, and 9043OZ, which I created and can be called up by you, might get you going. They all have a field of view of 15 degrees (which corresponds to a massive area of the sky), but you can easily change that.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent

BigDave

MemberDeaconOct-10-2012 7:20 AM
Well it was hard to work out where you placed that dot as they zoomed out and Space is 3D so its hard to pinpoint. I was going off mainly the clues given... 1) Ridley has said its a System near Zeta Reticuli 2) Shaws Notes has a star map that does losely represent Zeti Reticuli (also Gliese 86 is named on the side. 3) The distance they went was 35 light years which is the distance of Gliese. 4) If you take the configuration of the Prometheus Star maps and rotate them you can get a close enough match/overlay to 6 stars in the Eridanus Constellation (which includes Gliese 86). Taking these into account Gliese 86 actually has a large Saturn like Gas Giant its only planet... This adds with Holloway saying there is one star like our own that has one planet that has a moon that can sustain life. Again i draw a likely conclusion it points to Gliese 86 but as you say you think its pointing to Gemini Area, and at the end of the day Ridley says Zeta Reticuli which to be fair does not match the Star Map or the properties of the System they go to in Prometheus. So its just a case that maybe they intend it to be Zeta Reticuli without actually doing much homework..... but then again this kind of thing is evident all the way through the movie. As i have spoken to someone who claims to have had spoken to someone who worked on the movie and that the Goo the Sacrificial Engineer had taken is the same as what David gave to Holloway. Which again they had this idea about the Goo, it does this and that without doing any homework and we get some strange contradicting goings on, including how did the Goo produce that thing in his eye yet not mutate him.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconOct-10-2012 7:37 AM
So yes i dont think they put much thought into it, or they did but when they did the scene in the briefing they made a mistake, as it does look like that area is around Gemini, and if it was Zeta Reticuli it would appear to the south east a little of Orion. Then again Gemini has some stars that are about 35 light years away. So yes the image you posted does show it to be in the area of sky West of Orion. And when have looked at Stars 35 light years away that are on Shaws Map and close to Zeta Reticuli then Gliese comes to mind and you can center one of the stars on the Star Map to Gliese in 2 ways to get the others to line up near enough with other actual stars within Eridanus. So.... The Star Map they found, the distance they traveled and Shaws Notes do kind of link up with a set of stars within Eridanus and not Zeta Reticuli but then again its within 10 LY of Zeta 1. Then on the other hand we have the briefing in which the area of space is on the opposite side to Orion than Zeta is supposed to be, and we cant really match the Star Map with the Stars in that area and to also then point to 35 light years. So we have to wait to see what Ridley comes up with, and if he is not claiming its a map of Planets well the film may dispute that... Who knows, i guess we got to accept its planets near Zeta Reticuli when a lot of evidence proves otherwise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

zzplural

MemberOvomorphOct-10-2012 9:58 AM
Dave, The coordinates for the objects that you mention are as follows: Gliese (Gl) 59 (HIC 7235) 1h33m15.98s, -24°10'40.4" Gliese (Gl) 86 (HIP 10138) 02h 10m 269s, -50°49'26.28" Gliese 86b (planet) 02h 10m 14s, -50°50′00″ Gliese (Gl) 95 (HIC 10798) 2h18m58.503s, -25°56'44.56" Kappa Fornacis, Gliese (Gl) 97 2h22m32.567s, -23°48'59.32" Tau(1) Eridani, Gliese (Gl) 111 2h45m6.216s, -18°34'21.28" Note that planet Gliese 86b is very close indeed to its parent star Gliese (Gl) 86, as you might imagine, something that's not reflected in your graphic. When these objects are superimposed on a wide-field star chart, I get the following: [img]http://i46.tinypic.com/2psrrit.jpg[/img] They are spread over a very wide field in the sky. I can't rotate the Prometheus map to get anything close. But more to the point, the 'system' that Holloway shows in his map would not even be one pixel wide at this scale. And, as we have seen, it would be off the top-left of the chart by some distance.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent

BigDave

MemberDeaconOct-10-2012 11:45 AM
What did you use to map that out and which star is which? As the top most 3 are lined up similar to the star map. Shaws notes are familiar with these images of Zeta Reticuli [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Zeta_reticuli.svg/603px-Zeta_reticuli.svg.png[/img] [img]http://www.astrosurf.com/lunascan/map2.jpg[/img] And a few others that depict similar and i can kind of get the Prometheus star chart to near match some sets of those stars. Again i am no expert Astronomer and maybe we need find one who can maybe tell us where that Star Map would lead to? Ridley says its in or near Zeta Reticuli The movie states 35 LY away Shaws notes contain a map of Zeta Reticuli that looks similar to those images above and contains Gliese 86. Yet indeed the Star Map when they are in the briefing shows it in a completely different area. And its not just the Star Map that got this kind of inconsistency where the concept work, and Ridleys comments do not reflect or contradict what we see in the movie. Plenty of stuff does... they make comments that suggest the Xeno and LV 426 predates Prometheus but then they make comments that lead us to think the movie is about the Progenitor and in the actual movie again their are clues that support the Xeno predates but than also things that are not. Only Ridley may know where LV 223 is, and it seems they are hinting at somewhere around Zeta Reticuli but then do they really know, did they do enough research did they get the map idea from that constellation or a near by or just never give it much thought and we are over analogizing things. Was the Star Map at the Briefing a Goof a mistake, do we take this to then rule out what Ridley says and what the Weyland site etc is hinting at? I have a few questions.. 1) Where is that red dot you highlighted is it in Gemini? 2) In that area can you roughly match a set of 6 stars to the Star Map? 3) Have you found anywhere else that may match it, if we ignore the location shown in the briefing room. 4) Where to you think Prometheus must have visited which System or Systems?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

asphaltpilot

MemberOvomorphOct-10-2012 1:03 PM
The briefing could have shown the map from hundreds of different view points, at different scales, with different filters.

zzplural

MemberOvomorphOct-10-2012 4:57 PM
@asphaltpilot: But it wasn't. The map was very clearly shown from the single viewpoint of Earth. First in extreme close-up, then a straightforward zoom out to encompass the most recognisable of constellations, Orion. There was no fancy moving about during the zoom. @BigDave: Yes, the 'system' that Holloway shows is in Gemini or, at the very least, where Gemini [i]should[/i] be. I'm reticent to say exactly where because my initial attempt at pinning it down exactly didn't yield any conclusive results. I have a feeling that many of the stars in the hologram may have been made up by the Art Department but I'll check again tomorrow when I have access to my PC and have more time. I have no idea where Prometheus visited. I assumed it was a direct trip from Mars to LV-223.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent

zzplural

MemberOvomorphOct-11-2012 7:47 AM
OK, I did a bit more photoshopping... Here's the presentation by Holloway. The LV-223 'system' is the red blob. I rotated and perspective adjusted this to get a closer match to Orion. [img]http://i48.tinypic.com/2dm9su0.jpg[/img] And with three separate star maps overlaid. [img]http://i47.tinypic.com/efid0z.jpg[/img] All things considered, Orion is a darned good match. Even Orion's sword is there, but it's off by a tad. However, the rest of the sky does not match any real stars that I can find. There are some obvious stars that are missing and plenty of spurious ones. For these reasons, I think the Art Department just made it all up. NB, one of the starchart overlays looks a little blurred. That's because you're always going to get distortions when taking large swathes of the sky and projecting on to a 2D surface. Such distortions as there are cannot account for the fictitious star fields shown in the top graphic, though.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent
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