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The FINAL Canon Debate

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Gavin

Jul-25-2012 9:33 AM

PINNEDMany, many times other members and myself have put forward the possibility that the following film franchises all exist within the same fictional universe and are thus all canon to one another... [center][b]Predator - AVP - Prometheus - Alien[/b][/center] ...Yet many, many naysayers and detractors voice their opinions stating this is not the case. 9 times out of 10, such arguments are subjective, from individuals whom don't like the idea. Now, while some of those supporting the idea of these franchises existing within the same universe may also have subjective arguments, I do not. I have looked at this debate from an objective point of view and always reach the same conclusions... - There is more information in the movies to suggest they are all set within the same fictional universe - There is no contradictory information in the movies that states otherwise - There has not been any official statement stating otherwise To that end I challenge the naysayers to disprove, with verifiable sources for their information and statements, why these franchises are not part of the same universe.

194 Responses to The FINAL Canon Debate

Gavin

Jul-27-2012 5:01 AM

@ Engineer Tech Brett... As I said... Note the first line says "Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity..." Not... "Weyland Industries is recognized as a legal entity..." ...Again, it clearly says Weyland Corporation, not Weyland Industries.

Crabfart

Jul-27-2012 5:41 AM

Isnt this argument based on nothing saying they cannot exist in the same universe and so we could add a million other films no?! How about howard the duck in the canon :P ...

Svanya

Jul-25-2012 9:39 AM

James Cameron and Ridley both say no. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKnS7CGWNmU&feature=youtu.be]James Cameron Hates AVP[/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=5TQLRMIGA2I&NR=1%22]Ridley Scott on AVP[/url] I like AVP, but not as anything more than a Hollywood mashup. I do not like AVP Requiem, that was a facepalm movie.

Gavin

Jul-25-2012 9:45 AM

Actually.... In the first link, Jim Cameron actually says... [center]"they've really screwed up the whole franchise"[/center] ...and in the second link Ridley says [center]"they know how i feel"[/center] ...neither of 'em say "no, they are not canon".

genjitsu17

Jul-25-2012 10:00 AM

While i love the original AVP (Machiko) comic.....the movies just blew. I thought the purpose of introducing Peter Weyland was to reset the Weyland in AVP. I dunno, just seems stupid to also have 2 simultaneous ancient alien stories going on. Having the Engineers and the Predators both visiting humans would have caused some trouble, i think. Just my opinion.

I may work for the company, but im really an OK guy.

Cypher

Jul-25-2012 10:00 AM

[img]http://flicksandbits.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/avp_skyswingball11.jpg[/img] Tell you what Snork, if the 3rd AvP (if there ever is one) shows me how the original Space Jockey ended up on LV-426 then I'll join your evil cause :P

[url=http://www.robocopmovie.net/][img]http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/snorkelbottom/NewRoboBanner.jpg[/img][/url] "Is it dead this time?" "I dunno, poke it with this stick and see."

Redleader

Jul-25-2012 10:00 AM

Have you noticed they dont like any of the other alien and predator movies, only their own? Ridley had chance to backup his comments and it failed. Camerron would have failed too unless he created a similar war movie like aliens and avatar. I wonder what Paul Anderson say about Prometheus? Something like the comments above.

genjitsu17

Jul-25-2012 10:09 AM

AVP one was ok, just couldn't shake the ripoff feeling of the main character's developed friendship with the predator. Machiko anyone? Plus Paul S. Anderson is a hack director. It was one of his best films though.

I may work for the company, but im really an OK guy.

Cypher

Jul-25-2012 10:14 AM

Event Horizon is his only one worth watching I reckon. I wish he'd leave my beloved Resident Evil alone too :'(

[url=http://www.robocopmovie.net/][img]http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/snorkelbottom/NewRoboBanner.jpg[/img][/url] "Is it dead this time?" "I dunno, poke it with this stick and see."

joeyjoe

Jul-25-2012 11:37 AM

As far as im concerned, alien franchise canon includes: alien, aliens, alien 3, and prometheus. Frankly, i ignore alien insurrection and both AVP's because they are all three complete garbage (id give all of them an F....literally). Subjective, i know, but im just being honest. The real reason i ignore those 3 movies is because i dislike everything about them and feel that they are antithetical to the cinematic spirit of their predecessors (franchise canon). If i were to try and force some objectivity into the scenario, i might say this: All of the films with david giler and walter hill as producers are canon. Hill and Giler were involved with alien, aliens, alien 3, and prometheus. Hill and giler refused to be a part of alien insurrection and the AVP flicks. How anyone could get on board with AVP is beyond me.

genjitsu17

Jul-25-2012 10:23 AM

Forgot about E.H. That was pretty cool. Yeah R.E. films are soooooooooooo terrible. Verped a little just thinking about them.

I may work for the company, but im really an OK guy.

Engineer Tech Brett

Jul-25-2012 11:59 AM

I take the same sort of view as Joeyjoe on this one. Alien, Aliens, Alien3 and Prometheus are canon. Anything else is a no for me at the minute. I love the predator films aswell but i dont really want the two to mix ulness its a game or comic. The AVP films were just awful money making exercises. I really hate them along with Alien Resurrection and Joss Whedon

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Gavin

Jul-25-2012 12:04 PM

@ joeyjoe - brandywine productions AKA David Giler and Walter Hill were also producers on AVP, AVPR an Alien Resurrection. In other words they received money for lending the production and intilectual rights, and thus had their names attached to those films, all the time not objecting against the productions.

genjitsu17

Jul-25-2012 12:56 PM

They bash Ressurection in the special features. Saying "They have there's and we have ours.", "Horrible idea", etc.

I may work for the company, but im really an OK guy.

joeyjoe

Jul-25-2012 1:15 PM

@snorkelbottom: oops. thanks for the info. lol. I didnt know that. Were they (hill and giler) really involved with the project at all or did they just lend the production rights? Genjitsu17 hit upon why i said what i said. Giler has gone on record stating that he has nothing to do with insurrection (genjitsu17 provided an accurate quote). Giler saying: they have their film and we have our films is pretty damning. A statement like that draws a rather clear line of demarcation. Its like...1-3 are the real deal and 4 is something else entirely. But again, this all really comes down to personal taste. There really is no objective way to completely eradicate avp and insurrection from the group. Afterall, they clearly have xenos in them. I just choose to believe that insurrection and the avp flicks dont exist. @tech brett: yessir..completely agree with you!

Mr Tanker

Jul-25-2012 1:16 PM

naysayers lol the only reason i wouldn't want them in the same universe is the idea a predator could own an engineer.

Custodian

Jul-25-2012 1:33 PM

"The FINAL Canon Debate" ? snorkel, don't try to believe it'll ever be over. LOL

2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

Gavin

Jul-25-2012 1:47 PM

Brandywine Productions own the production rights of the Alien creature and anything relating to the universe the creatures exist in (despite the fact they have no right to own such rights), without their involvement Alien Resurrection, AVP and AVPR could never have been made. Furthermore, these are not only the same people who pushed Dan O'Bannon, the creator, out of the way to milk it for every buck, but they also commissioned Jim Cameron after he made one decent film and screwed over David Fincher a dozen times over and then reworked his original movie to meet their own ends. David Gilers statement "They have there's and we have ours." doesn't stop them signing the production rights over to make more money of an idea that was never even theirs in the first place, does it?

Lone

Jul-25-2012 2:20 PM

.

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

Engineer Tech Brett

Jul-27-2012 5:33 AM

@Snorkel Weyland Corporation is recognized as a legal entity means that it is recognized to have the rights and responsibilities like natural persons. It says Coporation because that is what the company is. the name of the corporation is Weyland Industries.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

David 1

Jul-25-2012 2:28 PM

Question: Did ALIEN had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS 3 had predators in it? - NO, but had some nasty predators of another kind Did ALIENS 4 had predators in it? - NO Conclusion: Predators ARE NOT ALIEN UNIVERSE CANON. I might also reply to that old "there is an alien skull on the pred's ship" with this question: If some stranger brakes in your house, sits in your couch puts his feet on your table and watches your tv, does that turn that person into the rightful owner of your own house?

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

allinamberclad

Jul-25-2012 3:24 PM

Personally, I'm not sure, at all, that suggestion, absence of contradiction, and lack of official denial is its own conclusion and that it must necessarily be interpreted as inclusion and acceptance?.. Perhaps I could be tolerated to wander up and down Yasenevo and produce an air of suggestion that I was a respected Cryptologist of the First Directorate of Intelligence?.. However tolerant they are of my foolishness, I suspect that a very great amount of extreme prejudice and tremendous rough handling would be my greeting, the second I tried to gain entry. @David 1 Well put.

Fan

Jul-25-2012 3:29 PM

@snorkelbottom I am one of the few who believe that you nailed it. I believe that until there is a CLEAR statement or sequel that contradicts the pred or AvP movies, they remain canon. You know what? It's really no skin off my back either way. There are some weird aspects to the introduction of other franchises such as the preds, but hey, if the powers that be don't like how it turned out than they will not write sequels..it's really no big deal. To answer your challenge, no I cannot find anything anywhere that states that scenes from pred 2, AvPs, or alien r are to be considered null and void. As for people's reactions...well, for some reason the abbreviation AvP just gets people fired up when the word canon is mentioned. Mention the word canon and people will subconsciously make a decision to avoid the topic or question and just plain debate canon...not realizing that they are acting a little ADD. Post your evidence people, not your opinions! :)

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

David 1

Jul-25-2012 3:35 PM

Nrlfetmefan: quoting you mate [and sorry for that] "I believe that until there is a CLEAR statement or sequel that contradicts the pred or AvP movies, they remain canon." Did ALIEN had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS 3 had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS 4 had predators in it? - NO plus: Did Prometheus had predators in it? - NO IT DID NOT! still need more evidence?

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

Fan

Jul-25-2012 3:47 PM

Actually, your proving my point by answering the way you just have...don't worry about what I wrote, go find proof that the film makers themselves have disregarded the AvP and pred movies. But but to use your logic: Did alien have an evidence of an alien...Yes Did aliens have evidence of aliens....yes Did alien3 have evidence of an alien...yes Did alien r have evidence of aliens....yes Did pred2 have evidence of an alien...yes Did AvP have evidence of aliens...yes Did avp r have evidence of aliens...yes Did Prometheus have evidence of aliens....kind of Did alien, aliens, alien3, alien r, AvP, and AvP r have evidence of Weyland or Yutani? Yes Look at it however you want. ;)

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Gavin

Jul-25-2012 3:55 PM

@ David 1... Lack of a characters appearance does not mean lack of their existence. Also all of the Alien movies were released before AVP, which leaves Prometheus - a film about the Engineers, not the Predators, thus no need to feature them.

Engineer Tech Brett

Jul-25-2012 3:59 PM

I take it we are going purely on film here as a basis of evidence? No comics, games or novels?

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Fan

Jul-25-2012 4:13 PM

I only ever played AvP2 as far as games go and only ever read 20 or so of the comics....so I can only add this: AvP2 made mention of the Weyland Yutani Corp, colonial marines, preds and Aliens and I don't believe that it contradicted any of the movies. As for the comics, there was a set that bring the engineers into play, but they are not what eventually Prometheus makes them out to be...or it didn't seem that way to me. They must have referred to the original Aliens vs Predator comics, because at the end of AvP, one of the preds burns a sort of warrior mark into the main chicks face...the same as in the comics. So, are the comics canon? Probably not, but they sure make a great reference for the writers.

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Engineer Tech Brett

Jul-25-2012 4:19 PM

If it is just films then i would say........... Alien v Predator is set in 2004 with Charles Bishop Weyland as head of Weyland Industries but according to Prometheus Weyland Industries isn't formed until 2012 and Sir Peter Weyland is the founder.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

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