Alien Movie Universe

Ridley Scott is wrong - First Engineer Not On Earth

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XenoGuard25

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 2:55 PM
(*EDIT* I feel this is necessary to post, so please read. I am personally not trying to change anyone's views on the Engineer's whereabouts or significant plot points in the story. This is just what made the most sense to me. I could be very wrong, I could be very right. Either way, I'm just sharing my thoughts.) (Giving Fair Warning, this is kind of a lengthy read. I have yet to see this theory as well, so I apologize if I'm double posting.) Hello Prometheus-movie.com community, I've been following these boards for a while, but first time posting. I would like to offer my theory on why Ridley Scott is wrong about the first Engineer, and how this small plot point ties the entire movie together. The sacrificial engineer is not on Earth, and here's why: First of all the Space Jockeys have technology that is beyond our understanding. They are far more advanced than we are, or at least this is what the movie is leading us to believe. So in that respect I don't believe that they need to undergo a terribly painful suicide to narrow down a few DNA strands. The movie even shows humans narrowing down human DNA with a little laser that took maybe a couple seconds. All an engineer would have to do is narrow out their DNA and dump it in the water. No fuss. So I don't believe the Engineer at the beginning had to drink the black goo to introduce human DNA. Secondly, they show us the mothership. If anyone else noticed the giant saucer ship in the beginning was full of the little horseshoe ships. Why do the Space Jockeys need to carry around their mothership just to drop off one engineer to seed Earth? They could've easily plopped out a horseshoe ship to drop off the Engineer to seed life on Earth, and you're done. There's no need to show the mothership on Earth. It makes more sense to show giant vessels on LV-223 since that's their base of operations. So where is the Engineer, and why is he drinking a horrible bio-weapon? Let me tell you, he's on LV-223! The landscape looks extremely similar, and it ties the movie together to make sense. I believe the Engineer was apart of the research and development Space Jockey team on LV-223. This Engineer witnessed how corrupt his people had become, and wanted no part of it. After seeing the potential of the black goo, as well as its destruction he had only one choice; Drink the goo and release the contamination onto the facility to stop their crimes against the universe. This would explain how the facility on LV-223 was compromised, how there were compromised escape ships that and crashed on LV-423, and frankly ties up the entire black goo plothole mess (how it deconstructs engineers, but mutates humans / worms, yet also begins to deconstruct humans again (Holloway)). This also explains why the pilot space jockey wanted to continue with his mission to Earth. He was the 'last' space jockey of the research and black goo development team, and escaped the wrath of the engineer that sacrificed himself in the beginning to stop this facility. I do believe the movie is stating Engineers created life on Earth. So in that respect, yes I believe the Engineers created life on Earth. However I don't agree the first scene of the movie depicts this plot point. How do I explain the director is wrong? Well the director just directs. He isn't the writer. In the end, Ridley's theories will most likely always be taken over the original intention of the writer. However, I believe the writer intended this explanation.
32 Replies

greg

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 8:26 PM
I haven't seen any of the alien movies so maybe that makes a difference but I don't think the guy in the beginning was on earth, or if he was thats fine but it's not super related to the movie. If he was seeding earth with the building blocks of life a billion years ago (I have got to think there is a better way than disolving yourself) that's all well and good but it has no baring on the plot of the movie which realy revolves around blue people's interaction with humans and the big WTF moment where we learn that humans are a genetic match for blue people. Not just that we are made from the same genetic material (earth worms and eagles are made of the same stuff) but members of the same species, like how an 8 foot nordic albino and a pigmy are the same species, human, but look very different. If he was poisoning the desert alien planet that at least has a bearing on the plot but I'm confused as to how that would work. The dead aliens were running from something and you don't run from a water born virus. Also the virus seems to disolve you (as happened to opening scene blue guy, and handsome doctor man). They mentioned how well preserved the dead alien bodies were, which is the opposite of disolved. If disolving alien unleashed those wormy things (which I could see happeneing since poisoned handsome doctor man had tiny eye worms) then the dead blue aliens didn't show any signs of crazy worm death, such as being crushed, or face melted, or turned into a super strong crazy zombie, like the geologist. So I don't realy get either theory. Maybe it is not at all realevent to this move and will be book ended in the next one. I hope there is a next one I liked it a lot. SIDE QUESTION: When registering I was asked to solve simple math problems to prove I was not a synthetic. Can they not do math? I would think if I were to build a robot the one thing it could do would be math.

thefacehead

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 2:57 PM
Hmmmmm

allinamberclad

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 3:17 PM
What?... I think you've missed the point - which, I have heard tell, is, specifically, to do with the genesis of Humankind/Life, on [u]Earth?[/u] That's the actual, material and significant point of the Story - hence it seems rational that the prologue would naturally be suggestive of Earth? And his DNA was dumped and rebuilt in a process that was suggestive of kick-starting cellular organisation and duplication - it was more than just DNA, it was actual "Life". It would only make more, "sense", for all that to be set elsewhere than Earth if in order to fit this idea you've just come up with in your head. It also wouldn't follow - because where is all the life on LV223 that he went to all the trouble to sacrificed himself to start?... I'm going to suggest to you that, in terms of a Prologue being to do with Earth and that fact actually befitting the Story that was actually promoted and, supposedly, then filmed - Ridley Scott is significantly more right than you are.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 3:17 PM
@thefacehead.... i agree hmmmmm! @xenoguard25..... so your saying that the space ship at the start of the film...dropped this guy off....where he drank the black goo...to infect the planet....to stop the engineers doing what they do....and then this space ship landed and got involved in the dying part instead of flying away to safety?....not disagreeing in the sense that it could be a different planet (though i highly doubt it considering what the film is supposed to be about, life on earth and all that)...but also cells in these opening moments where starting to evolve life of some kind which kicked in....resembling human dna....nice ideas but you've kinda contradicted yourself (absolutely no disrespect intended) just for me a big gap in your idea...

Brett

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 3:40 PM
in the recently posted scans of the Prometheus art book, the opening scene portrays it more as a ritual. [img]http://i42.servimg.comhttps://www.scified.com/u/f42/16/22/94/10/hpqsca16.jpg[/img]

XenoGuard25

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 3:54 PM
@allinamberclad - We're just going to have to agree to disagree. @Nickell, please re-read my post. That's not what I'm saying at all. My post states that the Engineer is on LV-223. Not some random planet. I state that the mothership dropping the engineer on earth makes no sense. The mothership is on LV-223, where it makes sense to have such large vessels. Also, that DNA strand could have been anything. The DNA strand, in my opinion, was the contagious outbreak that lead to the monsters chasing the Space Jockeys in the Holograph. Thanks for the picture Brett, but to go along with my post - Ridley interpreted this story the way he wanted, and I feel he's wrong. So, of course he would have the art made to match his view.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 3:57 PM
@Brett love that stuff man...thanks very much for posting i haven't seen these....they'd obviously dropped some of that idea for the film....where ever they are earth or otherwise the place looks dead or derelict or is indeed a new born planet....in need of life and growth? maybe.....like you say its very ritualistic....kinda reminds me of a chosen one or majesty....maybe his DNA was more pure or something and is sacrificial because of his position and/or lineage....

oyunbozan

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:09 PM
you filled a big gap OP. thank you.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:10 PM
@xenoguard out of respect my friend i have re -read your post....and it is what your saying!...i think you need to go back and read your own post and see whats wrong with it...youve went off on your own tangent to explain a point that you've come up with yourself....i mean really....the ancient ancestors must have some eye sight to see this guy sacrifice himself on another planet and then scribe it on walls on earth in their own back yard....it does indeed make more sense to drop the engineer of on earth if indeed he is there to create life which is the whole premise of the film anyway...where the tory is passed down over all these civilisations which as i ve said already....they scribe on the walls...which leads to the whole point of going to find them anyway....come on man!....and it makes no sense at all to drop of a guy to kill himself and kill the rest of the planet...only for the ship to stick around and be killed along with everyone else on this foreign planet....that IS what your saying...3rdly and most blatantly....its human DNA at the start of the film....thats why it matches....(although ludicrously) later on in the film....when Shaw examines and compares it....it matches ours....where'd we get it from.....that planet your saying he was on at the start?...where everybody died? according to you.

allinamberclad

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:11 PM
@XenoGuard25 Yes. I think we're going to have to agree that the one position is supported by declaration of the Authors and supporting material (ie: the film and the Story it relates): and the other position seems supported only by what you have made up in your head.

XenoGuard25

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:25 PM
Ugh.. this website keeps losing my replies. @Nickell Thank you for rereading my post. I mean no disrespect by anything I type, however this is the last time I'm going to clarify my post. I didn't state in anyway that the mothership dropped off the Engineer to destroy the facility on LV-223. I'm saying the Engineer worked at this facility, walked out, took the black goo to contaminate the planet to stop production of the black goo. I also agree that the movie states the Engineers created life on Earth. I just don't agree that the first scene is depicting this. My reasons are in my OP. @allinamberclad You're right. This is my opinion, and it made the most sense to me. However, there was another script written before Lindelof's edits. Perhaps this script could prove me right, or I'm completely wrong. Either way, this was my opinion based off the movie Lindelof and Ridley Scott presented to me.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:39 PM
@exnoguard25... and i quote from your post...ahem!...."Why do the Space Jockeys need to carry around their mothership just to drop off one sacrificial engineer? They could've easily plopped out a horseshoe ship, drop him off, and you're done." I'm can't waste time on this.....your theory all though a great one....has no place in this film.... theres a very good reason why you haven't seen this theory posted before....peace out

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:51 PM
@xenonguard and you know what....just for good measure...another quote from your post..... "This also explains why the pilot space jockey wanted to continue with his mission to Earth. He was the 'last' space jockey of the team, and escaped the wrath of the sacrificial engineer." this would be the last space jockey who survived the WRATH of the sacrificial engineer you now say ddn't go about killing the planet...indeed the same space jockey who was on his way to earth to kill us humans who HADN'T been created because this all started on lv223..with the sacrificial engineer...who amazingly just so happens to have the same dan as humans....and ends up on archaic walls of the ancient people of our civilisation ....separated by thousands of earth miles and earth years......do you finally get a hold of what you wrote.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:54 PM
@xenonguard and you know what....just for good measure...another quote from your post..... "This also explains why the pilot space jockey wanted to continue with his mission to Earth. He was the 'last' space jockey of the team, and escaped the wrath of the sacrificial engineer." this would be the last space jockey who survived the WRATH of the sacrificial engineer you now say ddn't go about killing the planet...indeed the same space jockey who was on his way to earth to kill us humans who HADN'T been created because this all started on lv223..with the sacrificial engineer...who amazingly just so happens to have the same dan as humans....and ends up on archaic walls of the ancient people of our civilisation ....separated by thousands of earth miles and earth years......do you finally get a hold of what you wrote.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:54 PM
@xenonguard and you know what....just for good measure...another quote from your post..... "This also explains why the pilot space jockey wanted to continue with his mission to Earth. He was the 'last' space jockey of the team, and escaped the wrath of the sacrificial engineer." this would be the last space jockey who survived the WRATH of the sacrificial engineer you now say ddn't go about killing the planet...indeed the same space jockey who was on his way to earth to kill us humans who HADN'T been created because this all started on lv223..with the sacrificial engineer...who amazingly just so happens to have the same dan as humans....and ends up on archaic walls of the ancient people of our civilisation ....separated by thousands of earth miles and earth years......do you finally get a hold of what you wrote.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:57 PM
@xenonguard and you know what....just for good measure...another quote from your post..... "This also explains why the pilot space jockey wanted to continue with his mission to Earth. He was the 'last' space jockey of the team, and escaped the wrath of the sacrificial engineer." this would be the last space jockey who survived the WRATH of the sacrificial engineer you now say ddn't go about killing the planet...indeed the same space jockey who was on his way to earth to kill us humans who HADN'T been created because this all started on lv223..with the sacrificial engineer...who amazingly just so happens to have the same dan as humans....and ends up on archaic walls of the ancient people of our civilisation ....separated by thousands of earth miles and earth years......do you finally get a hold of what you wrote.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:58 PM
@xenonguard and you know what....just for good measure...another quote from your post..... "This also explains why the pilot space jockey wanted to continue with his mission to Earth. He was the 'last' space jockey of the team, and escaped the wrath of the sacrificial engineer." this would be the last space jockey who survived the WRATH of the sacrificial engineer you now say ddn't go about killing the planet...indeed the same space jockey who was on his way to earth to kill us humans who HADN'T been created because this all started on lv223..with the sacrificial engineer...who amazingly just so happens to have the same dan as humans....and ends up on archaic walls of the ancient people of our civilisation ....separated by thousands of earth miles and earth years......do you finally get a hold of what you wrote.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 4:59 PM
@xenonguard and you know what....just for good measure...another quote from your post..... "This also explains why the pilot space jockey wanted to continue with his mission to Earth. He was the 'last' space jockey of the team, and escaped the wrath of the sacrificial engineer." this would be the last space jockey who survived the WRATH of the sacrificial engineer you now say ddn't go about killing the planet...indeed the same space jockey who was on his way to earth to kill us humans who HADN'T been created because this all started on lv223..with the sacrificial engineer...who amazingly just so happens to have the same dan as humans....and ends up on archaic walls of the ancient people of our civilisation ....separated by thousands of earth miles and earth years......do you finally get a hold of what you wrote.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 5:01 PM
@xenonguard and you know what....just for good measure...another quote from your post..... "This also explains why the pilot space jockey wanted to continue with his mission to Earth. He was the 'last' space jockey of the team, and escaped the wrath of the sacrificial engineer." this would be the last space jockey who survived the WRATH of the sacrificial engineer you now say ddn't go about killing the planet...indeed the same space jockey who was on his way to earth to kill us humans who HADN'T been created because this all started on lv223..with the sacrificial engineer...who amazingly just so happens to have the same dan as humans....and ends up on archaic walls of the ancient people of our civilisation ....separated by thousands of earth miles and earth years......do you finally get a hold of what you wrote.

XenoGuard25

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 5:15 PM
I tried to adjust my original post to clarify for you Nickell. If you're still trying to pick apart my post, then I honestly can't make you understand what I'm saying. I also can not post on this website for some reason. It's taking 5mins just to load up a page. Thanks to everyone that read my theory, and for the posts whether they're agreeing or disagreeing. I hope I helped piece a bit of the story together, or at least give another way to look at this movie.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 5:28 PM
@exenonguard ...look my friend firstly sorry about these multiple posts don't know how that happened....second of all I'm not picking apart anything...you presented something then said you didn't say this or that...when you clearly did...thats why i pulled your quotes from your post...id read it right the first time...i completely understand your post....and like i said theres some good stuff there for the sci-fi-verse...its just not relevant to this movie...you've completely disregarded the story relating to earth and human beings and the search for answers that is the foundation and evidence for this movie and indeed why they go to find the 'creators' in the first place in favour of a made up of your own thing theory just to get a point across about a different planet other than earth that theres no evidence in the movie of and gives no other thought to how we ended up on earth as beings with the same dna as an alien who sacrificed himself on another planet somewhere...that we somehow know all about...to go and visit......simple as that....i wish you well....but i really think you need a 2nd viewing....to disassociate some things.

mountaindewbass

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 7:50 PM
I imagine that the engineers are like that of Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. They created the planet and need to put it in motion..but no mice to front the bill for the space design

RHunter

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 8:56 PM
@ZeroGuard25 First of all...Are you a teenager who needs to be on the AVP, transformers or Dragonball-Z forums. How can you demand Ridley is wrong about a script he aided in writing with an opening scene he $&%# directed. He's so F____! wrong about his own vision. I got it....this movie is real and Ridley is telling the story and directing a movie about something that really happened. That's how he's wrong. Go play video games!

Kratos

MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 10:46 PM
XenoGuard25 at first I disagreed with your take. Then I thought about it and agreed with it but then I realized some other things… Before you continue, I am actually unaware of what Ridley’s take is on any of this stuff if he’s spoken about it already so I'm not trying to say I'm right and everyone's wrong. Its just a loose interpretation... The black oil is something that mutates specific DNA types in a host carrier relationship. Its not something that creates all life. Its got to be something that creates life on certain terms. I think it has a method but I think it is incompatible where the oil is mixed directly with Human DNA. Perhaps the real purpose of the engineer was to come back to earth and run experiments to create new species that could be used elsewhere? A new slave race for instance? Its no different than Weyland having David created. After thinking about this, I believe the first engineer was on LV-223 which originally could have been a large installation. As Xenoguard25 proposes, the engineer decides that he can not go along with his race’s plans just as I’m sure there would be some human opposed to the creation of David the android. In fact you can see the attitude by many of the crew towards David. I think David resented them…. So anyway, we see 1st engineer in a robe near a waterfall that goes into a river. The amount of oil he ingests destroys him and we are shown on a molecular level how it destroys his DNA and it continues to destroy. Would it stop destroying if it came into contact with other organisms in the water? What would it do to the water? What would that oil do to plant life or trees? Were the earthworms natural to that planet or were they only on the engineers ship because they had a specific plan or experiment? And how would the destructiveness of the oil affect the atmosphere? Remember when our crew arrived there was very little oxygen and primarily carbon. Remember the decapitated space jokey? They carbon dated his body at what was it? 2000 years? Is it possible that what the 1st engineer set in motion could have taken 2000 years for LV-223 to have the atmosphere that it does when our crew arrives? I say this because if these Engineers have the same DNA as us its not a far stretch to assume that they need oxygen to breath. Notice when they entered the engineers space ship, there was oxygen. That was a stupid thing to do to remove their helmets but I think it was more Ridley stressing this. Apparently the engineers need oxygen. If not, why generate oxygen for thousands of years? My only thing, is that if they need Oxygen then at the end when the Engineer goes after shaw, we see him without his elephant mask. Do you think he used it on the way to the pod and took it off in the other room? If so, he’s a dummy he could have used that against squid baby. Also he must share the same DNA as this crew because he was so arrogant to not bring a weapon. He didn’t even bring a blade. Now I was disappointed to see him go out like that….He went out like a punk…He could have sliced that squid and grilled his ass for lunch…jeez And then the result of the squid having come from host Shaw who was impregnated by Holloway who I think is unable to be used directly by the oil as a “host” but can be used as a carrier, remember the piles of spacejokeys on the alien ship? Remember how Mohawk dude just freaked out? I think he would have blown up like the decap head if left alone and would have been like the pile of space jockeys. So the squid the result of a mutation or two and stupid with rage engineer now equals Giger’s elongated alien head standing upright…. For me, I laughed in the theater cuzz that was like Ridley throwing up a middle finger!

Deneba321

MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 1:22 AM
lol...let's talk about perspective and namely why would we think an alien would think like us or hold our values? Wouldn't it make more sense that they actually have their own values and culture (which is different than ours). So based on what we observe, at the start of the film, the first (seen) engineer drinks a brew specifically designed to seed a barren planet with his (one would infer carefully) parsed DNA. In this sense, he's the progenitor of all life on earth. This means that the engineers see a kind of honor in death that begets life (because surely they could design a surrogate for such a donation otherwise)...hence it is desired. Interestingly congruent with the perspective the initial post XenoGuard25 made on this thread, at the end of the film, Weyland risks all of humanity (for whom he presumably worked all his life) waking the Engineer for his own personal gain at the end of his life (extension of his personal life, rejuvenation of his personal body, or perhaps ending his personal curiosity). This is the desperation of a made-thing who views his own personal spark as the most precious. It is not the perspective of a maker, an engineer, who has near total mastery over the making or unmaking of their life (per the beginning). I mention this because that means the director understands there are two different cultures and only one of them descends from our current value system. However, when the captain, who doesn't care about anything in particular, is willing to kamikaze his ship containing his one and only personal body into the Engineer's craft, that is transcendent of personal, aka desperation of a made thing who views his own personal spark as the most precious. And it might explain why the Engineer didn't shoot the Prometheus down immediately or perceive it as a threat until it was too late; Engineers don't expect such actions of us just as you, XenoGuard25, didn't expect such behavior as peaceful and voluntary of the alien at the start of the movie.

Nickel

MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 3:13 AM
absolutely done with this thread..... firstly @greg.... i didn't present a theory here....just the facts of the story of the film that i watched unfolding in front of my eyes....we are told by the story tellers...its on earth...read every official review...if you have to...and they ALL begin with alien sacrifices himself and begins life on earth....nothing anywhere apart from made up theories says this happens on a different planet.....and if it did....how would our ancestors know about it. @Kratos....are you and xeongaurd25 the same person?....id like you to give me evidence from the film that backs up yours and his evaluation....where in the film...does it say any of this?your completely speculating....and holding the flaws with the film up as if they have some kind of meaning....they don'tt the fact that the engineer isn't wearing a spacesuit at the end is a flaw....and an unexplained one at that..final thing...the aliens/engineers DNA at the start is clearly shown to spark life into volution...His DNA recombines with other elements and forms cells which are GROWING and MULTIPLYING....its right there on the screen....with all the disregard for narrative and ambiguous ardour of this film you'd think we'd get what WAS actually presented to you.....big things have small beginnings....Goodbye

Eric123

MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 10:56 AM
While I'm not sure which theory is correct , I think it's unwise to say " how would humans have known they created and seeded their DNA if that scene was on lv 223?!?!?" The humans were not watching themselves being created so they never would have seen that happen, which implies there must have been other encounters. The cave paintings and opening scene do not match.

ufokid

MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 4:20 PM
@XenoGuard25 i was going to make my first post but i came across yours and now im not sure lol but heres a comment your theory is right up my alley but i have a lil more of a wild twist. i to don't believe he was on earth while drinking the venom like black goo i think he was on lv223 here is the twist i don't think the flat saucer ufo ship was the "mother ship" u say it is i think that is either a different type of alien that live on the "engineers planet or just different aliens all together!!!! how i cam up with this is because when the first alien movie came out years later on line the main question was who's the guy in the chair i did a lot of reading up on that question and he was always referd to as THE SPACE JOCKEY flying to different planets and Galaxy's i think that is there mission and only mission to follow orders maybe from the being that were flying that ship in the opening scene to take cargo to different places in the universe and that cargo would be those pods that would explain why they were not prepared for an out break because i would like to think being that there very smart and if they made something like that they would had have plenty of precaution's to override any possible out break now if my theory is right riddley can make so many movies off of this and take his time doing so because every one will want to know who are the beings that flew the ship in the opening scene where did they come from are they the real engineers it would be even more questions well let me know what you think

XenoGuard25

MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 6:34 PM
Great theories everyone! Whether you agree or disagree there have been so many well thought out posts. I'm really happy to share my idea with you all, and for you all to share yours with me. Thanks again for the posts! Again, great ideas :)

goo

MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 7:48 PM
@XenoGuard25, hats off to you, way to think out of the box. i am totally with you on this. I thought it was obvious that directors, writers, etc., are open to the fact that their interpretations of their own work is not the only valid interpretation (david lynch is a great example of a director who doesnt even make an attempt to offer interpretations of his own meaning-heavy work), so to propose an alternative to ridley's theory is 100% valid imo. On top of that, the Greek legend of Prometheus is one of a trickster-god, and there are tons of correlations between his mythology and the movie, which leads me to want to question everything proposed as "obvious" in the film.
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