Why So Ignorant

Even if we take a moment to set aside the fact that AVP and AVPR are terrible films, I still don't like the creature element in each one. For my money the problem stems from Cameron's A L I E N S. The addition of the Queen really removed all the mystery from the Alien and sort of spoiled it a bit (I should point out: I still think Aliens is a great film to watch). In A L I E N the Alien was such a mystery and we had so many questions to ask; what the hell is it? A reptile? An insect? How did it get here? Where did the eggs come from? Its life cycle was horrific yet incomplete, and we had no idea what it was aiming to do. (The egg-transformation scene in the directors cut was especially eerie and distressing). In A L I E N S the Alien was reduced to a "bug". Thats it; a bug. The Queen lays eggs, they hatch, the Aliens swarm. There are plenty! Here; why not shoot some with this pulse rifle! ...That's just...mundane to me, too pedestrian, too un-original. Back to AVP & AVPR... I think there was no benefit adding extra creatures to the life cycle. The Predalien was just added as a set piece, simply because nothing else interesting was happening in the film.

Granted AVP and AVPR weren't executed at all very well, but their ideas, especially regards "Princess" solved issues from Aliens. Regards the bug idea, I agree... to a point. Yet me elaborate, Some people think there may be an Alien homeworld, whereas I don't. If the Alien was an indigenous creature on some planet it would have wiped out all suitable hosts on their homeworld. Upon using up all viable hosts the Aliens would have died, and in time too their eggs. This is why I believe the Alien is a creation of the Space jockeys, the question is why, and there is the mystery. Are they a weapon, a tool, a security force, an army? The mystery is still there, we just need to look and think harder to realise it.

Still remember that the "intellectual" property of alien is of Ridley scott and Giger .. im not talking about a law standpoint ( the FOX hold all the rights ) , im not interested in that , im talking about who is "morally" the owner . So if ridley scott want to change everything ( who are the aliens , how they evolve etc )and relate only to Alien i think he have the moral power to do that ...and everyone who dont like that can ignore the movie ( intellectual freedom ) .

Totally agree Mentos,couldnt have said it better myself Snork-I agree that i think the aliens were created and therefore dont have a homeworld at all. Yeah ,their true purpose still remains a mystery, im in favour of it been a planetcleanser/available weapon (if needed)

I was under the impression that the "intellectual property" of the alien and all associated with it was held by Giler, Carroll and Hill - Brandywine Productions, purchased from the late great Dan O'bannon and Ronald Shussett. If the property was Scotts and Gigers Aliens-AVPR would not have been possible with both their say so, and we know that is not true because the last time Giger was truly involved was Alien, and Scott had no involvement in any of the sequels or crossovers. That said I seriously doubt Scott will change anything, after all Prometheus is being billed as a seperate story set in the same universe that links to Alien, but is not an Alien film

Thadus, I agree with the theory, in fact I envision the Alien as means to create an artificial extinction event, to encourage a leap in evolution from the surviving lifeforms on a planet, leading to the eventual evolution of intelligent life.

i think that an intellectual property is of who put things to work and make if famous ... without Ridley Scott and Giger all the alien thing can be total different ...was the art of Giger that gave the unique look and the maestry of Scott to put in on the screen . You talk about what the law say ...im talking about what eyes and heart should say .

Sentimentality in other words. Yes it was Giger and Scott that gave us the film, based on a script by Brandywine, which was manipulated many times from O'Bannons original script and screenplay. Scott has always reverred his achievements in Alien, but has also stated that there were missed opportunites that he never got to explore, that was the birth and IMO what Prometheus is. But thats not what I'm taking about here, The "Princess" idea in AVPR solves the problems of the Queen and solves and explains the existence of two types of xeno - Warrior (ridged head) and Drone (smooth head).

Artificial extinction is a viable theory and could also suggest the Space Jockies have their own agendas in mind, destroying all natural lifeforms Yeah the Alien creature was gigers/scotts baby. Remember Giger wanted to totally redesign the creature for Alien until Ridley stepped in. Legally speaking tho,20th century Fox hold all the rights to the franchise.Its only now the shit has hit the fan,so to speak,that they have gone on bended knees to Ridley/Giger to rejuvenate the franchise

This is how I view the theory I mentioned... Space Jockeys are ancient, very ancient. Venturing into space they expect and abundance of intelligent life but find very little. Using their genetic know how they create a substance, an artificial primordial soup that will generate life when coming into contact with any substance (say water on primeval earth). Then, learning that Intelligent life usually forms on a planet that faces multiple extinction events (forcing evolution to adapt and mutate) they develop the perfect means to achieve such events artificially - the xeno.

so and so perfect ...one xeno was beaten by a woman and a cat . :D and without a gun ( yes she shoot with an harpoon but a book would have obtained the same results ) ... i wonder one tank what could do :p ... i think if they were so advanced a virus would have been a much faster and lethal choice ... Maybe then in Prometheus we will see How the "classic" aliens are born ...if as a weapon or for an error or horrible dna mix or vicious experiments

I know they(Brandywine) re-wrote it but at the end of the day wasnt the shooting script Dans?...Based on the story by him and Ron...On a side note they(Brandywine) again were crafty buggers when it came to getting money from a partial written script by cameron....Im not a fan of the three of em I must say. But they did get the ball going...

@ Frantz, If you are refering to the theory I just put up the context states it is against wildlife, not intelligent life. My theory proposes that the xeno was used against wildlife to create extinction events to encourage the development of intelligent life. Thus, maybe it is possible that the Space Jockeys never intended to use them against intelligent lifeforms, and therefore were unsure how effective they would be. @ Marty, then milked it for every penny, just look at the interference they caused in Alien 3, causing Fincher to disown it.

I agree with Mentos in that Aliens (sequel to Alien) removed most of the mystery behind the creature. What's funny is the predator franchise had this same exact problem, where predator 2 removed most of the originals mysteries. It just didn't seem logical to me that the entire race of the so called predators would be hunters, to me the creature in the first film was just some rouge of his species looking for a good time. To think that all of them were just alike is really boring and completely uninteresting. Adding the queen to the alien franchise was a bad move in my opinion, the creature in "Alien" seemed really organic at the start but became more mechanical later, as if it were adapting to its climate (the ship). This opens up way more possibilities and more interesting subjects. I don't have a problem with the two franchises colliding with each other, I have a problem with their individual sequels.

Thus as I've said AVP and AVPR were essentially damage control, just a shame they weren't better executed.

I would be a purest when it comes to Alien movies. I would totally disregard the AVP movies and what they introduced to the series. I dont believe they will be at all linked with Prometheus. Scott will keep it low key just like the original. We all seem to assume the jockeys are some kind of super being. But where is the evident? All we know is they drive an impressive space ship and are huge. But succumb to the Alien also. My bet is that they are the creators of the Alien. Such a creature could not have a home planet unless there were other forms of life on it bigger and more aggressive or populated with beings which could live with it. The Alien is a thoroughbred and I bet has a very short life hence it's aggressiveness. But I just can see Scott delving into princesses etc.

Greetings all: This is my first post here. I have been an Alien/Aliens fan for years. I don’t know about a “princess”, but I like the idea of the queen in Aliens. I understand the position of some that xenos are supposed to be “alien”. But are they that much different than us or other earthly creatures (2 arms, 2 legs – except for queen, tail, mouth, teeth)? I don’t think their lifecycle would be so extraordinarily different than other creatures in the known universe. Interesting idea about the ridged vs. smooth head. I think the xenos were not created by the SJ’s, but selectively bred from original stock acquired from somewhere else.

I have been reading this thread and found it interesting no one mentions the books.... In the books namely the trilogy that was supposed to be the continuation of Hicks and Newts story until they killed them (still not happy about that btw) but changed to be the story of Wilks and Billie. In this series we do go to what is defined as the Alien home world and you do see that they aren't the only predators on it. You also learn that there is also a Queen Mother that is in charge. The next time they go to the Alien home world is in Aliens Genocide. I also would like to note about the Space Jockey is in the 2nd book of the before mentioned trilogy. I won't spoil what you learn about them but the one you "meet" did know the Space Jockey from the movie Alien. I also think that if you are looking for canon for AVP stick with the books and comics they were out way before the movies. In AVP comics they address Pred-Aliens and they also refer to him as a "King" I also seem to remember them saying when the first AVP came out it would be separate from Alien but incorp a lot of the same canon so as not to upset the fans. I also hold to this because if it is canon that means the first and second Predator movies are incorrect do to the Predators that hunted us "Oman" or soft meat have to be blooded., and neither of them had marks on their forehead. As to the mention of the deleted scene from Alien. I read that they were not being transformed or anything like that they were being cacconed. This also meets in standards as far as canon if you follow the books. It states in the books that a drone can become a queen after time if no queen is present. I understand that my opinions here are very much in conflict with some of y'alls and understand I mean no disrespect but I look at this through the eyes of someone who has read every Alien and AvP book and even has a tattoo of each on my calves. I would love to hear your thoughts on what I posted.

Hi Snorklebottom, Seems to me that the word “canon” gets thrown around quite a bit, in regard to film franchises…let’s explore that for a moment. can•on 1. an ecclesiastical rule or law enacted by a council or other competent authority and, in the Roman Catholic Church, approved by the pope. 2. the body of ecclesiastical law. 3. the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon. 4. a fundamental principle or general rule: the canons of good behavior. 5. a standard; criterion: the canons of taste. Origin: before 900; Middle English, Old English < Latin < Greek kanṓn measuring rod, rule, akin to kánna cane Canon - definition: This word is derived from a Hebrew and Greek word denoting a reed or cane. Hence it means something straight, or something to keep straight; and hence also a rule, or something ruled or measured. It came to be applied to the Scriptures, to denote that they contained the authoritative rule of faith and practice, the standard of doctrine and duty. A book is said to be of canonical authority when it has a right to take a place with the other books which contain a revelation of the Divine will. Such a right does not arise from any ecclesiastical authority, but from the evidence of the inspired authorship of the book. The canonical (i.e., the inspired) books of the Old and New Testaments, are a complete rule, and the only rule, of faith and practice… OKAY THEN…WHEW! Thing is…people choose their film allegiances similarly to the way the choose their faith or religion…or lack of religion. Come to think of it…it’s a very analogous paradigm. Some cling to the old, some reach for the new, while others are somewhere in between. It’s like the ancient debate, between Judaism and Christianity…or Catholicism and Protestantism. Both believe that they’re right. But those are religions…involving past history…and super natural “All Powerful” beings. There my be an actual right and wrong. So, as far as applying the word “canon” to fictional media, movies, books, video games, etc. is concerned…it’s kind of a leap or a stretch…in MY humble opinion. I know it used often…but I think used abusively and inappropriately. In the end…it’s art. And, like any other art…the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. FOX and the filmmakers are making this stuff up as they go. Behold, FOX ALMIGHTY said: “Let there be PROMETHEUS”…and so it is. If this was something like the Lord of the Rings films…then I think…maybe one could apply the word Canon. Those were previously written works being developed into films. With the ALIEN films…each one is its own creation…a child born of different parents. As for me, I enjoy the films with ALIEN being excellent, and the subsequent films decreasing in quality in release order, with AVPR being the least quality. Now, because I tend to love all things ALIEN related, I can’t help but be attracted to all the films, even the weakest ones. But, “Mentos”…in a previous post, pretty much stated my exact feelings in regard to the ALIEN and AVP franchizes. However, I'm glad that there are a lot of fans who totally enjoy some of the more recent films and ideas...even if I was seriously disappointed. Ya know…I’m probably gonna be pissed that PROMETHEUS is gonna explain away TOO much of the ALIEN mystery, that I’ve enjoyed since I was 12 years old. Oh well…C'est la vie. ~N

Humility seems all but lost...

Good post neurion, your closing comments are interesting regarding Prometheus explaining the great mystery of alien it could just be that your left with more questions than direct answers.

FOUND PROOF TODAY THAT SCOTT HIMSELF AS EARLY AS 1984 SAID THE HOME WORLD OF THE XENOMORPH WAS MARS, THAT HE WAS THE LAST SURVIVOR OF THAT PLANET, AND THEN IN 1999 CHANGED HIS MIND AND SAID MARS WAS TOO CLOSE TO EARTH BUT THAT NEVER THE LESS THEY WERE DESIGNED AND CREATED FOR THE SOLE PORPOSES OF BREEDING AND WAR. "The sequel should explain what the alien is and where it comes from. That will be tough because it will require dealing with other planets, worlds, civilizations. Because obviously the alien did come from some sort of civilization. The alien was presented, really, as one of the last survivors of Mars- a planet named after the god of war. The alien may be one of the last descendants of some long-lost self-destructed group of beings". –1984 Interview with Danny Peary "I always wanted to go back and make an Alien 5 or 6, where we find out where they came from and go there and answer the question, who are they. Mars is too close so they can’t be, they can’t be gods of war, but the theory was, in my head was, this was an aircraft carrier, a battlewagon of a civilisation, and the eggs were a cargo which were essentially weapons. -1999 Commentary from Alien 20th Anniversary DVD

As far as "canon" goes, I daresay Scott was free to do whatever the hell he wanted in that regard and would discount anything and everything from the AVP spinoffs. I agree with others in the hope that this story will ask more questions than it answers.

There's an old saying the more light you use to illuminate the darkness the more darkness you reveal.