Im DurpInitiateMember478 XPJan-01-2018 4:31 PM
Ok before anything else just going to say that to that Obi Wan and Yoda had much less hardships is 100% wrong for a variety of reasons that can be pointed out. Yoda lost a republic he had spent his life guarding, and all of the jedi in his order, who he had seen be raised since young children due to the jedi's practices at the time. The order was basically Yoda's family and it gets annihilated with the name of the jedi being dragged through the mud with it. Obi Wan loses all the Jedi he grew up with, his master, his apprentice turns on him, the love of his life is murdered in front of him. Those are equal to anything Luke experienced. Also their exile had an end game namely training Anakin's children, they didn't just give up and leave and try to kill the jedi way with them. The state of the galaxy is also different in that the empire is in control when Obi Wan and Yoda go into exile and before that, with no rebellion and the help of 1 senator try to take on the newly established empire storming the jedi temple to change codes and then going to fight the new sith. Luke gives up before the first order wins. He knows that there are multiple dark siders out there 1 he basically created, and he doesn't try to assist, he doesn't warn people, he goes into hiding and leaves the galaxy to die.
This is not Luke Skywalker, the argument that he went through all this and failed and that was the catalyst is wrong. He failed Ben by raising his lightsaber to kill him. The same character that refused to kill Vader even when the jedi were telling him to saw a darkness so bad(after standing in front of the emperor, who isn't even comparable to Kylo) he tried to kill someone. That completely regresses him through his character arc in the OT for the sake of Ben, because the director wanted to keep it ambiguous if Ben was really evil at the time, so they had to make Luke mess up so they could keep playing that role up then once the role of evil is established, Luke suddenly becomes the character he was 2 episodes prior and comes back to die.
This wasn't Luke from the OT this was insert character here to work with the 2 new leads and do what we need for their development, and story, not what that character had before.
ignorantGuyContributorMember900 XPJan-01-2018 10:48 PM
Yoda suffered less hardship? he had 900 years and felt the death of every Jedi through Order 66 (that surely must have been maddening). Yet, if Luke wants simply to die, why not kill himself? Why leave a map in 2 pieces to find him? Why visit an ancient Jedi site? How does this cut off from the force works anyhow?
AlooNoobMember19 XPJan-02-2018 1:21 AM
Worst Star wars movie i ever watch.
AlooNoobMember19 XPJan-02-2018 1:21 AM
Worst Star wars movie i ever watch.
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-02-2018 7:33 AM
I was going to comment, but I see my work has already been done up above.
ZogarNoobMember12 XPJan-02-2018 8:02 AM
I agree. luke had to deal with the fact that he nearly murdered his nephew and created a monster. He knew he was too weak to fight him and feared his power as he said it terrified him. Ben and Rey are extremely powerful and it looks like their existence is leading to a change in the force. Luke stayed away because he was ashamed of what he did and if it got out he would be despised, because that moment of fear and anger led to the death of billions under Kylo Ren's command. Not to mention facing Han and Lea. "Hi, I tried to murder your son because of a moment of weakness, how are things?" Luke's sacrifice was his redemption.
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-02-2018 9:36 AM
^Doesn't change the fact that Luke never would have tried to murder his own son on a HUNCH that he might be evil. This was a guy who was dying by Palpatine's Force lightning as his father watched and still believed his Father had enough good in him to save him. Luke Skywalker isn't a character that ever needed redemption, he was the light in the galaxy, the one who was the opposite of his father--he was the Light side of the Force.
And also, too weak? Excuse me, as the direct son of the Chosen One with training from Yoda and Obi-Wan, I don't care who Ben Solo is, Luke is and should have been the most powerful Force user ever--considering Anakin was limited by his mechanical components. He would have been able to annihilate Kylo Ren with a flick of his finger, instead he is just a story piece to further advance the nobodies Rey and Kylo.
I Meme Everything2KMember4115 XPJan-02-2018 12:41 PM
Luke basically created his own demon, and as Uncle Ben said, he has a lot of Anakin in him. If it were Anakin instead of Luke, he probably would've gone to Ach-To to cry. And what's wrong with him contemplating killing Kylo? In ROTJ, he nearly killed Vader when he was sent into a blind rage, but stopped himself at the last minute.
Im DurpInitiateMember478 XPJan-02-2018 1:04 PM
Uncle Ben was talking about his piloting, and wanting to leave Tatooine, not violent hatred that could bubble to the surface at any time.
Also not sure why you keep trying to compare it to Anakin, but he definitely wouldn't have gone off to cry, he would have likely tried to just kill Snoke.
What's wrong with him contemplating killing Kylo, is that his whole lesson in the OT was that you don't beat the dark by fighting it, that was the point of him and the new jedi that followed him. They were supposed to be the correction over the jedi of the prequels. To even contemplate killing Ben(contemplate is the wrong word he ingited the lightsaber, he was past contemplation at that point) is out of character, then afterwards to take the jedi teachings not try to help anyone, or stop what was coming is even more out of character. This isn't a character that gives up, and he definitely isn't a character that tried to kill a sleeping apprentice.....except of course when it can be a plot point for another character, then suddenly it's possible.
ZogarNoobMember12 XPJan-02-2018 2:53 PM
@Emperor Gorilla Godzilla, Ben Solo was Luke's nephew not his son. And yes he feared his power and he feared Ren's. That's moving the story forward. If Luke popped up and saved the day that's too predictable and boring. We've seen that. We've had three movies and we've seen Lukes story. Force Awakens was criticised for being too similar to a New Hope. If they played it safe last Jedi would have been blasted for being too like Jedi. Luke isn't perfect, these heros can make mistakes too. If you don't like the new movies, just don't go to them.
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-02-2018 3:05 PM
I know he’s his nephew, made an error there.
Even if it is predictable or not, you don’t destroy a character’s entire story arc to further new ones. Luke by this point would have been far and away superior to Kylo Ren and Rey, yet he gets beaten by the latter and won’t even confront the former. It’s undeniable character assassination, this why I don’t seem these new movies canon.
BatchpoolInitiateMember357 XPJan-02-2018 3:35 PM
At some point I was drawn to the dark side of the force. This probably has a lot to do with the order in which I first watched the Star Wars saga, that being IV,V,VI, I,II,III.
At the time Revenge of the Sith came out, I feel there was a mood present whereby the perfect hero, like Luke Skywalker had lost some appeal to some parts of the Star Wars audience, myself included. I found myself becoming more sympathetic to Vader’s story. That was then and time has moved on.
With the Force Awakens we have been presented with a new era and another new hopeful in the form of Rey. This has presented new characters and started the transition of bringing in the new, but we have had to wait until The Last Jedi to complete the transition.
I find Disney’s release of this movie has been very well timed to fit in with the Christmas calendar and probably for a very good reason. Our first real meeting with Luke places him as a guilt ridden figure that appears to have stepped straight out of the pages of a Dickensian novel. There were great expectations for Luke, but his initial meeting with Rey makes him look like a less than charitable Scrooge, full of humbug. As we get to know more about what has happened to Luke, we get the spirit of Chistmas past, present and future in the form of Yoda.
Overall, I think what we get with Luke Skywalker is essentially an alternative Christmas Carol. By the end of it he does the right thing and has come full circle in redefining himself as one of the good guys, but not one who is perfect after all.
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-02-2018 4:48 PM
^ Except for the fact that canonically Luke WAS the perfect hero. He was a light so damn bright he turned his dark side depressed father back to the light and gave Vader the last bit of hope and life to fulfill his destiny and kill the conduit of evil, Palpatine—that’s how good Luke was. No random writer can go and change a story arc like that, it’s a betrayal.
BatchpoolInitiateMember357 XPJan-02-2018 5:55 PM
@ Emperor GorillaGodzilla
I take your point about the fact that Luke canonically WAS the perfect hero and how The Last Jedi appears to be a betrayal of that fact. But I think there is also the possibility of redemption and a turn round of the betrayal in the next movie, although this may be me clutching at straws or wishful thinking on my part. I think there may have been a subtle caveat hidden in the movie and a lesson to be learned about judging people too hastily. I am now talking about Vice Admiral Holdo and how at one point she was looked upon as a coward, but later it was revealed she certainly was not. Was this done to act as a possible warning as not to run to conclusions about Luke also ? This is a question I will wait to see gets answered in the next movie, but I think the possibility does exist for something more to be revealed about Luke.
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-02-2018 7:06 PM
Maybe, we will see.
Im DurpInitiateMember478 XPJan-02-2018 7:09 PM
The difference is Holdo is a new character that we didn't know so we did judge her wrongly. Luke is a character we knew so it wasn't really wrong to expect him to act in character.
GavinLegendMember9516 XPJan-02-2018 11:39 PM
Like I said in the article, I prefer the original trilogy over and above any of the new movies. The movies were my childhood, and I'm talking before George Lucas started tinkering with them. I owned the Kenner Millenium Falcon and the AT-AT, I had the Vader, Luke, Wicket, and Boushh Leia figures. I had the PJ's and the duvet cover. Stood next to my laptop I have the 20 inch Darth Vader figure that can be seen in the background of Colliders Jedi Council. But seriously...
"Yoda and Obi-Wan's hardships" - Granted Yoda and Obi-Wan had a plan for being in exile and admittedly had experienced near equal hardships to those of Luke. But both Yoda and Obi-Wan were Jedi Masters, raised and mentored for decades/centuries in the ways of the Jedi and the force. Luke had not. A couple of cheap tricks and a lap or two around Yodas house does not make Luke Skywalker a Jedi Master. As such comparing Luke to Obi-Wan and Yoda, saying "he wouldn't give up, because Jedi Don't give up", doesn't carry. Luke was more comparable to the rest of us, who having experienced such hardships would either have given up or committed suicide.
"Luke would defeat Kylo ren with a flick of his finger" - When and where in the OT did Luke ever show he had this much power. He could levitate some rocks and C-3PO, and Jedi Mind Trick a few numbskulls (Bib Fortuna), but his knowledge and training in the ways of the Force and the Jedi in the OT consisted of blindly repelling laser fire with a lightsaber, levitating some rocks, and running around Dagobah. In Return of the Jedi he had the nerve to call himself a Jedi Master. NO, a padawan would have had more training, hell a youngling probably had more training than Luke.
"Luke was the perfect hero" - Which version of the Star Wars OT have you seen. Luke is whiny, ****y, arrogant, naive, impulsive, ignorant and more. He abandoned what little training Yoda gave him, against Yoda and Obi-Wan's wishes to face Vader in Empire, during his duel on the Death Star II with Vader he let himself be seduced by the dark side twice (as I mentioned above), and was so ****y he threw his lightsaber aside when facing the Emperor. If Anakin hadn't had saved Luke, Luke would have died. He wasn't the perfect hero, if anything that would have been Leia. Had she bee trained instead of Luke she would not have been so foolish, brash or as hotheaded.
"Luke was THE light of the galaxy" - No he wasn't, Anakin was. It was Anakin that fulfilled the prophecy of the chosen one, not Luke. Luke also didn't turn Anakin from the Dark Side, though he did help in the matter. Padme's dying words were (para-phrasing here) "There's still good in him", and in Episode V, when the Emperor suggests killing Luke, Anakin immediately replies "the boy would make a powerful ally", protecting Luke before he had even met him. Anakin never went fully Dark Side, as his reasons for turning to the dark were not selfish like Palpatines quest for "unlimited power", Anakin went Dark to save Padme's life. After going dark the knowledge that Luke had survived, and thus that he had not murdered Padme on Mustafar started Anakins draw towards the light.
"Luke was all powerful" - In The Last Jedi, nope. He was the second most powerful after Snoke. Luke sent one projection across the Galaxy, Snoke sent two of other force users (Ben and Rey). In the OT, again nope. The most powerful was Anakin, with or without missing limbs. Remember he was born of the force and had more potential power (aka midichlorians - shudder) than Yoda, and had turned to the Dark Side which bestows more immediately accessible power (but less wisdom and enlightenment) than the light. Luke being born from Anakin and Padme would likely have been weaker in the force than Anakin, with Ben Solo being weaker still.
Okay, rant over (LOL).
Timmy the ultramorphContributorMember559 XPJan-03-2018 12:10 AM
I really don't see the big deal with luke in the last jedi. in the final battle in return of the jedi, the rebels would have still won the war without his help. in fact, he barely did anything in the whole trilogy other than blowing up the first deathstar. why people fuss over luke dosn't make snse to me.
after his jedi training thing got destroyed and his nephew turned evil, what luke was in the last jedi seemed perfectly reasonable. what really pissed me off in the last jedi was thier use of snoke. he was completly usless to the story and we never found out who he is, what his intentins are or why he is in controll of the first order. he is essentialy just a bland palpitine rip off.
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-03-2018 8:14 AM
Gavin, we're talking about the end of Luke's character arc, not him throughout the trilogy--at the end of RotJ he was the ideal heroic figure. By RotJ, Luke was the light of the galaxy, as Anakin was still dark until the sight of Luke dying convinced him to change. We seem to forget it still took Vader a bit of time to fully execute destroying Palpatine, he had been evil for that long. And equally, what I've been saying is that by this point in the timeline Luke SHOULD have been able to defeat Kylo Ren with the flick of a finger. He was the direct son of the Chosen One who had been trained by two legendary Jedi, nothing should have been able to compete with him at this point.
Im DurpInitiateMember478 XPJan-03-2018 9:25 AM
"Yoda and Obi-Wan's hardships"
- I think the comparison does carry because at the time of the incident Luke has been learning the jedi way for over 20 years, giving him more that enough time to learn their ways and change his personality. He didn't spend the time Yoda did, but he was definitely closer to the master title by that time than you are giving him credit for.
"Luke would defeat Kylo ren with a flick of his finger"
- You're comparing things that are different for meta reasons. The timeframe around the original trilogy didn't really allow for over the top powers at the time. Just look at how much more proficient someone like Vader looks in a more recent showing and take into account Luke was dueling that level of skill. Also training time doesn't really effect it as much as mentality, and Luke by the end of ROTJ had this on top of spending a decent amount of time learning the jedi ways. I can't think of padawans really doing the variety of things he does, since most jedi take much longer with training before they can do the things Luke can.
"Luke was the perfect hero"
- I think you're not really understanding Luke. Throughout the trilogy he gets better at every quality you list to the point of almost not having those issues. Also, he threw his lightsaber aside not due to ****iness, but belief that his father would overcome the evil that was controlling him, and fighting him wasn't the way to do that. This is made pretty clear by the lines, "I'm a jedi like my father before me." I think you're also giving Leia too much credit if you think she wouldn't have gone to help her friends when she had those visions, chances are she definitely would have.
"Luke was THE light of the galaxy"
- Luke is the light, without him no one would have been willing to reach out to his father to bring him back. Vader only was able to do what he did because Luke helped him. Not only do jedi masters tell him to let Vader go so does Vader claiming he's too far gone.
"Luke was all powerful"
- I disagree with your power analysis for a lot of reasons. 1. Snoke enhances a bond that is already there, as is clear since they still do it across a planet after his death. Him taking credit for it entirely is like him claiming he knows kylo's every thought when we see he can just get some idea of them. As for who was the most powerful in the OT it was Sidious, Anakin has the most potential but he never reached it, everything visually implies Sidious is still top dog in that movie and think George Lucas himself gave the comparison that Vader is 80% Sidious at the time of the OTl, or maybe that's just the new canon comparison between them, either way, there's a reason Vader never overthrew Palpatine.
You seem to be focusing on the wrong things, but I'll clarify for me personally. Luke failing isn't the problem with the character, it is the way he failed and how he dealt with it that is out of character.
CJHNoobMember14 XPJan-04-2018 3:31 AM
Give the man a break. I watched the film and had no issues with Lukes story. Who keeps their sanity 100% of the time? The force was like his family, and like familys they can drive you mad in time, cause upset and resentment. However he has now come to his senses, and his ghost (who traditionally are more powerful than you can possibly imagine) will be back, im sure.
Xenotaris2KMember3846 XPJan-05-2018 3:30 PM
I agree, The Last Jedi screwed up Luke Skywalker big time! I mean yes Luke did fall slightly to the darkside for a brief second in Return of the Jedi but he wanted to bring his father back to the light.
Danzilla93InitiateMember210 XPJan-05-2018 9:06 PM
Oh, the drama...
Love it or hate it, one thing is certain... this is one HECK of a meta Star Wars movie.
If you look at the decisions made to change characters like Luke and alter so much of the Star Wars formula, it's clear that this movie wasn't so much a Star Wars movie as a it was a movie ABOUT Star Wars. Think about it: lines of dialogue like "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.", and Luke talking about the Jedi being deified after their fall, with their flaws being buried by time. It's clear they are talking about the original trilogy, and moving on to something beyond the old characters and traditions of the formula. And that's EXACTLY the movie we got.
I'm doing a lame job of explaining it. I'd HIGHLY recommend giving the following video review a watch. It's the best "The Last Jedi" review/dissection I've seen, and the meta qualities are really excellently spelled out.
I Meme Everything2KMember4115 XPJan-10-2018 5:24 PM
When was Luke ever perfect? He's not freaking Superman. He's shown time and again he has real human flaws.
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-10-2018 6:14 PM
Perfect in terms of the HERO'S JOURNEY. A hero is someone who would go against all odds to save something good, and that is what Luke did and always was.
I Meme Everything2KMember4115 XPJan-12-2018 1:18 PM
It's not like Yoda's and Kenobi's hardships didn't take their tolls on them. They firmly believed that Vader could not be redeemed, and Luke had no other option but to kill him. And Yoda first rejected Luke's request to train him in Empire.
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-12-2018 1:49 PM
Yoda never rejected Luke, he said that the "boy has no patience." He had his doubts, but he still knew he had to train him in order to save the galaxy.
I Meme Everything2KMember4115 XPJan-12-2018 6:06 PM
^After he said Luke has no patience, I'm pretty sure he said "I cannot train him."
GG2KModerator3811 XPJan-13-2018 9:38 AM
For a moment he had his doubts is aid, "I cannot train him, the boy has no patience." He was skeptical about training another Skywalker after Anakin, but he didn't lure the damn kid around all of Dagobah while he milked shell-less turtles and destroyed ancient Jedi artifacts with lightning. He heard Obi-Wan go, "He will learn patience" and then asked, "will he finish what he begins?" And then began the training.
LUKE HAS NO REASON TO BE SKEPTICAL, Yoda lost his whole order, Luke tried to assassinate his nephew on a hunch and then did nothing as all of his students were murdered or converted. You want me to believe for a moment Yoda wouldn't have gone God-mode and killed Kylo in a single strike? Your argument here is invalid.
I Meme Everything2KMember4115 XPFeb-04-2018 12:02 PM
^Luke also lost his whole order, so he's pretty much lost hope.
Im DurpInitiateMember478 XPFeb-04-2018 1:44 PM
So he wanted to end the jedi and leave the universe to die when he's the only one that could stop it?
GG2KModerator3811 XPFeb-04-2018 4:45 PM
Yoda stood his ground and dueled Sidious for the fate of his Order, Luke didn't even follow through on trying to kill Kylo--and sat in rubble apparently unconscious whilst this guy practically single handedly destryed everything.