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Facehuggers!

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Posted Jul-04-2016 7:55 PM

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UFOANAUT

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Posted Jul-05-2016 1:21 AM

I wouldn't say the entire series is a dream. Fans have already made good theories why alien 3 and resurrection could be excused as nightmares.  And like you said it all had to do with ripleys fears, like loosing another child, fears of what would happen if weyland or a military force had possession of the xenomorph biology, or fears of being impregnated with an alien herself.   

 

 

   

BigDave

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261

Posted Jul-05-2016 8:33 AM

Indeed this could be possible.... and maybe is one way to explain away Alien 4 and Alien R

Wishing those around the World who finally get to see AC this week a very good weekend

cuponator3000

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7

Posted Jul-05-2016 11:20 AM

I dont believe that the series is actually being presented as one big dream, but I do think it is cool to pint out how dreamy and mystic (for lack of better words) the movies are. 

Not a map, an invitation

cuponator3000

Member

7

Posted Jul-05-2016 11:22 AM

It adds a little something to the analysis of the films I would say. Like you and the other commenters mentioned, dream/nightmare seem to be one of the easiest/best ways to explain away the less liked films (3,4 and AVP, so who knows what the franchise will do with dreams 

Not a map, an invitation

MonsterZero

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Posted Jul-05-2016 3:28 PM

I'd be okay if Ripley suddenly awoke on the Narcissus and the events of Aliens, A3 and A:R were dreams.

Roll on A L I E N  I I  !

Chris

Admin

1274

Posted Jul-05-2016 3:34 PM

These kinds of topics really trip me out, but in a good way haha. Seeing things from different perspectives keeps the mind fresh.

I agree the dreaming imagery is clearly evident in the first 3 Alien films, whether by intention or not. Adding the dream sequences from Prometheus do make me wonder - besides the ability to communicate with Weyland while in hypersleep, why else would David not only need to possess such an ability, but to be intrigued enough to use it on others on board the ship?

If Alien and Prometheus were no more than a massive psych experiment for those undergoing hypersleep testing, I think many of us would be disappointed, haha. It's a very neat theory and the mention of the ALIEN being a chemical in the brain really got my mind racing. But I think realistically it's not likely the case.

Like others have stated though it very easily could work to help excuse Alien 3 and Resurrection from the series.

Facehuggers!

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211

Posted Jul-05-2016 3:53 PM

@cuponator3000

Quite so! The dream element in ALIEN really give it that intriguing quality and analysis.

@Chris Picard

Thank you so much! (Best to keep the dream theories hypothetical eh!) 

 

S.M

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0

Posted Jul-05-2016 4:14 PM

The start of Alien3 can be explained as being a presentation of real world events intruding into Ripley's subconscious and being distorted accordingly (hence why it's hard to make literal sense out of it). However by the time she's on Fiorina, she's very much awake.

However, the whole series being a dream.  Leaving aside that Ripley has very detailed dreams about events where she's not present; it's mindboggingly lazy storytelling. If she can just wake up, there's no consequences and the struggle of the characters lacks any purpose or meaning.

Facehuggers!

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Posted Jul-05-2016 4:29 PM

@S.M

Quite so, I see where your coming from. But say its an experiment, her dream imagery could be determined by artificial chemistry. And she is unaware of this hypersleep, so consequence and struggle are still relevant! We would still watch the films with incredible enthusiasm either way anyway!

S.M

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Posted Jul-05-2016 4:53 PM

If she can simply wake up, it doesn't matter whether she thinks its a dream or not. We as the audience know, therefore it's meaningless. After investing in the characters, simply writing it all of saying it didn't happen is cheating.

If you want to do something like that, you need to set it up as a dream from the outset and it has to have a purpose.

BigDave

Moderator

261

Posted Jul-05-2016 7:01 PM

There have been Horror movies before that play up on Dreams, so maybe it would work.... but i agree with SM that it would somewhat dilute the purpose of the movies.

Ok maybe if Alien 3 and Alien R are such dreams, or they could even have it that some part of Alien 3 was a dream... i.e the end... so Ripley wakes up looks at her chest and sees shes had something removed...  and then she realizes that the end of Alien 3 and Alien R were Dreams but dreams maybe that are in a way of a Premonition of whats to come. (company are going to experiment on the Queen removed from her).

But to go that route for another movie has one flaw and thats the Age of Miss Weaver... which is why Alien 5 will be set 20 years after and not nearly shortly after as it once was.

"If Alien and Prometheus were no more than a massive psych experiment for those undergoing hypersleep testing"

Now i know the Source claimed the movie would be like Matrix as far as Plot and Elements... but i hope its not so literal as that Chris LOL ;)

Wishing those around the World who finally get to see AC this week a very good weekend

BigDave

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261

Posted Jul-05-2016 7:03 PM

Oh i will add that Blomkamp seems to hint that they are not going to discount Alien 3 and Alien R as Dreams...  they are going to remain Canon.

Which makes me think only options are Clones, or some  Paradox Multiple Dimension Twist which i think would be Lazy too.

Wishing those around the World who finally get to see AC this week a very good weekend

Aorta

Member

8

Posted Jul-05-2016 7:33 PM

Alien: Paradox Multiple Dimension Twist.

I think that's brillant. If Blomkamp's film was titled that I might actually get excited about it.

Mizikame

Member

2

Posted Jul-06-2016 3:58 AM

^Hehe Riiiite? Honestly Thoe if it all was a Dream none of the Events that happened in the Series would matter & everything would be null. I do however believe that there could be something that would distort your Reality randomly after Deep Space Voyaging for a while (let alone being around Nightmares like the XenoMorb). Maybe the further away you get from the Core Solar System in the ALIEN Universe the more susceptible you are to having your Perception Warped?

CarynParnall

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0

Posted Jul-06-2016 9:23 AM

@Mizikame - The warped perception idea might be the best way of looking at the dreams and summing it up.

I don't think it's all a dream; however, I’m willing to believe certain events after the end of the original film represent an altered reality or part of a Matrix-like virtual reality simulation.  It’s complicated.  Alien 3 would end up being much more real than imaginary. 

@BigDave - What if the clones are more like “genetic siblings” than clones?  And maybe the whole thing is more like a simulated reality than a lucid dream, allowing Blomkamp to claim that the events of Alien 3 and Resurrection aren't really nightmares.

It’s difficult to explain why dreams and simulations can sometimes accurately represent the reality of the situation.  Even if some of it is revealed to be a lucid dream or living hologram, I would say it’s safe to assume that it all still matters in some way.

I agree with those who think that it would be pointless to reveal it all to be a dream.  It would also be kind of pointless for machines to be able to view the dreams - if it’s ALL a nightmare.  You would think that David could simply look around and perceive the dreams, if he was actually living in a dream world.  He needs the visor to be able to interact with the subconscious. 

As Chris noted, we may eventually need to ask ourselves why Ridley used valuable screen time in Prometheus to introduce the Dream Visor technology. 

I think the subconscious is only one piece of a larger puzzle.  If we look at it in terms of perception and the nature of reality, then it has the potential to be something more spiritual than “it was all a dream.” 

IMO it’s all about manipulating subconscious emotional states, which the conscious mind is often unaware of. 

Bringing Miss Shaw's memories of her father to the surface of her mind was an attempt to influence her to behave in certain ways that benefit the company's agenda.  Shaw is too emotional, and subconscious emotional states can be used by the androids to influence the unsuspecting humans to behave in irrational and illogical ways.  David lacks real human emotions, yet he understands how to use emotional states that we aren't even consciously aware of to further his own agenda.  He would explain this later.

Memory/the subconscious is regarded by the Company as the seat of the Soul.  To answer the big questions about mankind and the universe, they may need to look further into how some memories exist outside the body.

The Ripley clone is a false copy of Ripley, because it doesn't contain all of her memories.  It has no Soul. 

Ripley 8 dreams about a little blonde girl, presumably Newt.  She can’t remember the girl’s name in the dreams.  If the clone is dreaming, then it’s a dream within a dream.  Which is never very fun for anyone.  A copy of a copy, or a simulation of a simulation seems more interesting.  The idea that she’s trapped in a computer simulation is much more appealing to me.

People like Elon Musk have recently talked about the possibility that the entire universe is an extremely advanced computer simulation, possibly built by an Alien artificial intelligence.  We'd find out that this is David's perspective on the Universe in Covenant.  He chooses to believe that the entire universe was Created by a very advanced A.I., which in his mind brings him closer to God.  But David has no actual proof that the entire universe is a hologram, it's just a theory he subscribes to.  He seeks to find some way to test this new thesis and then hijack reality itself to control the universe. 

If we take the potential clues from the recent novel trilogy into account, then we might arrive at the conclusion that the entire thing is a dream.  This is dangerous thinking, though, because the Company might need to look into all sorts of things when dealing with the mind, reality, perception etc.  It seems more likely that the dream thread relates to ideas about consciousness and perception itself.  In the Happy Birthday vid, David is asked to interpret what he sees.

S.M

Member

0

Posted Jul-06-2016 3:28 PM

"As Chris noted, we may eventually need to ask ourselves why Ridley used valuable screen time in Prometheus to introduce the Dream Visor technology. "

Because it:

a) Gave us an insight into Shaw's upbringing, faith, loss of her mother, influence of her father;

b) Gave David a pervy edge;

c) Showcased the technology that would later enable David to talk to Weyland in his sleep.

 

BigDave

Moderator

261

Posted Jul-07-2016 10:21 AM

SM... thats exactly what i was going to put, you have explained its reason perfectly.

"  The idea that she’s trapped in a computer simulation is much more appealing to me."

Well the source said the movie (Prometheus 2) was to be connected to Matrix in a way LOL but i dont think they meant Literally as in a Simulation ;)  Who knows lol

We have to remember in Biblical Terms.... before creation there was "THE WORD" which could mean Code.. as in Computer Code ;)

I am sure Blomkamp is however not going to pass Alien 3 etc off as a Dream... but as alternative realities which can open a Can of Worms, but then could explain away AVP movies etc etc... but they are not to be considered Canon... but by going for a Alternative Reality then they open up the Franchise to be exploited and rebooted etc.

Nope... i think Alternative Reality could work if done in a certain way...

As i have said before on here a long time ago... what if the explosion on Hadleys Hope, sent a shockwave that somehow tore the Fabric of Space...  it hit the Sulaco... splicing up Two Dimensions.. and Two Sulacos... one carried on to Alien 3 Plot.... the other carried on to Alien 5....

Which is set 20 years odd in the future after Aliens.... the problem with this however is the Egg in Alien 3 how can one Ship have a Egg on it and the other in the other reality not..

Unless the other ship, has a Egg that does not cause the Fire on the alternative Reality and instead the Company obtain the Egg, unkown to a Ripley who arrives at a Space Station to carry on her life with Newt Happily ever after.... until 20 years latter the Horror Returns.

But the idea behind Blomkamps Alien 5 seems to be the Company (which looks like not Weyland-Yutani) obtain a Derelict/Juggernaught.

Why if they recover a Xeno Egg off the Sulaco...

 

Wishing those around the World who finally get to see AC this week a very good weekend

Facehuggers!

Member

211

Posted Jul-15-2016 9:18 AM

Just watched an interview with James Cameron, and I just realized the film ends with Newt asking Ripley if she will dream all the way home. Ripley answers, we all can dream...

HyperNova

Member

2

Posted Jul-15-2016 12:47 PM

This idea conjures up the very same suggestive feeling as Blade Runner posed: "Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?" or in this case, are Human Beings memeories, thoughts and dreams being probed, tampered and manipulated with by some unseen - potentially higher - force?

Diz

Member

10

Posted Jul-17-2016 1:44 PM

I think the dream angle would be a cheap cop out.  You can't just erase all the pain and suffering by saying "huh, just kidding".  But I suppose I could make an exception to explain away A:3 and A:R, as others have said.

Now the interesting twist would be to explore dreams as bleed-through from parallel universes or other dimensions, rather than just mental exercises.  A:3 and A:R could be written off as alternate outcomes from different time lines.  And the canon could be "corrected" with a coherent storyline from Alien, to the new A:5-7 (which would in effect become 3-5).

But not to just wake up, Bob Newhart style, and say "boy, did I have a dream last night" about the whole darn thing.   

 

MonsterZero

Member

0

Posted Jul-17-2016 4:04 PM

Not sure I'd even bother with a backstory. Just start the story fresh, not waste a second of film time explaining 'what happened'.

Maybe have Ripley, Newt and Hicks suffer from strange headaches and let the audience fill in their own backstory.

Sgt Jenkins: "You feeling okay Hicks?"

Hicks: "Yeah, just a little dizzy....Lets kick some Xeno ass!!!" *Blam! Blam!*

Facehuggers!

Member

211

Posted Jul-21-2016 6:21 PM

Now that it seems appropriate, I'd like to end my discussion with the following quote:

Hold fast to dreams.

For if they die, life is a broken-winged bird.

That cannot fly. 

DC AMBROSE

Member

0

Posted Jul-27-2016 8:12 AM

I, personally, think NB should go: "it was all a Conspiracy" - which makes considerably more room for creative headway than: "it was all a Dream," - you can, however, still have the "dream-theme" that has been consistent throughout the Alien franchise, and have the 'conspiracy theory' (we'll call it "CT" for short) plot simultaneously. It would go something like this:

Alien Resurrection and Alien 3 no longer exist... except within Ellen Ripley's own mind

Outside, in the 'other' reality, the one Alien 5, Aliens and Alien take place in - certain events like the death of Newt/Hicks, are symbolic of what really happened to them in the CT Alien 3, and the clones/hybrids in Alien Resurrection are symbolic of and correspond directly to what happens to Ripley in Alien 5. 
Then connect the dots:
1) Hicks/Newt - She finds out they are alive and well, and think she's dead (like she thought about them, except it was Ripley that "died" - I'll get to that in a moment, bear with me).
2) The Dreams - She finds out corporate elites/the military have been experimenting on her memories, studying her 57-year hypersleep, experiments studying immortality. The company, we'll call it "Zhang-Dykstra (ZD)" is run by a secret society of Alien cultists that worship the Hive Consciousness as god, and that ultimately they are the final step in evolution and that all will be unified within a Lovecraftian Hive Dimension Superorganism, of sorts.
3) The Story - Hicks and Newt are the male and female leads respectively. Only we don't know she's Newt until towards the end. We're led to believe she's the daughter of billionaire and ZD Rep. Charles Rutherford - a man who crossed Mike Weyland (Bishop 2) and connects her even further with Ripley and the experiments the Company is running on her. 
4) Horror - It has to be utterly terrifying. I mean the DARK kind. Think Poltergeist in space, as opposed to Texas Chainsaw Massacre in space in the essence that Poltergeist is more cerebral about its horror than TCM, the latter of which is a slasher. Like hands and silhouette, bizarre movements, disorienting claustrophobia, frighten the audience with immense strangeness (I can't stress that enough) as opposed to gore and cheap jump-scares that audiences are largely desensitized to now-days. 

And most of all, a big MENACING Alien. Not the little pipsqueaks we got in the AVP films. I mean an adversary that gives the impression of a unstoppable force of nature, whose very nature itself only becomes more mysterious the more we find out about it and the nature of the so-called "Hive Consciousness". Maybe tie in the power-vacuum (no pun intended) between the Alien (1979) and the Aliens (1986) that we notice between the two films.

S.M

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0

Posted Jul-27-2016 4:56 PM

What are they studying Ripley's dreams/ memories for?

Facehuggers!

Member

211

Posted Jul-27-2016 6:29 PM

@S.M

There is an infinite number of answers to such, one is perhaps to create emergency protocols to fit the reactions of a victim of a xenomorph. Or to study subconsciousness or instinct.

S.M

Member

0

Posted Jul-27-2016 7:16 PM

Are any of these infinite numbers of answers particularly viable?

I'm willing to be surprised if Blomkamp went down the dream route and it wasn't utterly creatively void, but I've yet to hear any 'those films were a dream' scenario that wasn't precisely that.

Thoughts_Dreams

Member

3

Posted Jul-28-2016 9:23 AM

Having them as being dreams would feel sort of cheap I think. Maybe AR could be used as an alternative timeline after A3 like: this could have happened but it didn't (but that is because I like A3).

Aorta

Member

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Posted Jul-28-2016 9:56 AM

'I'm willing to be surprised if Blomkamp went down the dream route and it wasn't utterly creatively void, but I've yet to hear any 'those films were a dream' scenario that wasn't precisely that.'

Thats the problem, 'it was all a dream' was a cliche decades ago. I'm dubious about A5 already, if it went that route it would just be embarrassing.

I got a kick out of Newt saying 'Can we dream?'. Ripley should have said 'With luck, we won't dream at all.'

S.M

Member

0

Posted Jul-28-2016 4:53 PM

The only way they can do it I believe (other than setting it after Resurrection), is to just flat out ignore Alien3 and Resurrection.  Never mention them, never allude to them.  Those films were a possible future.  Blomkamp's film is different possible future.

HyperNova

Member

2

Posted Aug-03-2016 1:35 PM

It would be interesting if there was a multiple dimension angle to proceedings and the next incarnation we get is an alternate timeline/parallel universe to 'our own' Alien universe that cause and effects go both ways so in alternate universe (Bloomkamp Universe) the Ripley there is "ghosted" space/time-temporal displacement-wise with Alien 3/Alien: Resurrection Ripley and vice-versa. Each one apparanly having visions of the others temporal experience in their own respected universe.

So for example, Ripley wakes up having a nightmare in Aliens as a result of her experiences in the event of Alien, it would be interesting in the third incarnation of the series in-keeping with the "dream-theme" there is a scene-or-two where Ripley does indeed have nightmares that are ghosting effects from her temporal counterpart in the events of Alien 3/perhaps Alien: Resurrection.

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