Stepping over Alien 3/Alien: Resurrection in a dignified manner whilst at the same time maintaing canon
Keeping Canon While Expanding Canon...
Have it where Ripley and Co.'s and ship: Sulaco are intercepted 5 months-or-so into he flight aay fro LV 426 and Alien 3/Alien: Ressurection narratives are merely 'The Company' effecting mind control upon Ripley til she is messed up quite a bit as a result. Hicks, Newt and Bishop were all intercepted by The Company as well, having there own dstinies effected and even there memories too. We slightly enter Original Total Recall territory where-events of Alien 3 and Ressurection are treated like memory lapses for Ripley, was she really there taking part in those events or was she? With that set up and potentially resolved both Alien 3 and Ressurection can be 'stepped over' with dignified acknowledgement while at the same time kept in 'canon' so Ripley and Co. from Aliens can pick-up and carry on perhaps all having lived there 30+ lives as other people, memories wiped or cryo- stasis inturuption scarring accounting for the aging effect or a clever combination of them all. Slowly, all our potentially 'lost' heros come together and involved in some new Alien conflict. And perhaps a few films could me made as a result, not just one to finish Ripleys story but maybe it is suitable to send off Ripley in a more satisfactory way than was done before...
*Moved to the ALIEN forums by Svanya
Interesting ideas but im not sure how they are going to pull it off...
I for one would maybe go the route of Alien 3 being a Cryo Sleep Dream, that would fit best but its how do we explain the Age Gap? And how she is younger in Alien Resurection..
This is easy as far as Age from Aliens -> Dream of Alien 3 -- Alien 5 (older) to Alien Resurection being younger...
Alien Resurection she was cloned right? If we get the DNA of someone and Clone them who is to say they would be Cloned at the Age they are now? If you in theory cloned someone who lost Limbs, then provided they was not born with no Limbs due to a Birth Defect, then the Clone would recover the Limbs.
As for the Age of Hicks and Ripley..... well thats a trickey one... Cryo Malfunction maybe but they would have to have it that Newt Died...
Maybe they could go the route of Hicks was the survivor and they company informed him that Ripley died and Newt.... Hicks then finds out that Ripley is not dead, and that the company have returned to LV 426 on a Salvage Mission, that has gone wrong maybe?
Hicks is off to lead a task force to go back and see whats gone down.
Maybe he discovers Ripley is alive, but has had memories removed and living another life, or maybe the company kept her in stasis, they could do CGI overlay and make up to make her appear younger, or have it they removed her from Cryo but into a Coma instead, where she would Age, and thus dreams also.
Or maybe upon finding Ripley she, is experimented on and infected with Xeno DNA, we are led to it cause her DNA and Cells to Age as the company is trying to make a Hybrid, and Hicks finds out and rescues her... They go off to LV 426 or where ever the company has the Xeno DNA and maybe Derelict to put a stop to it....
Alone the way, we could see Ripley start to take on Xeno DNA, this could give them excuse to use makeup to mildly change her apearence even something as suptile as they do with the STAR TREK CARDASSIANS to then in the end being able to Merge with that Space Jockey Suit thing.
Either of those ideas, could lead to Alien Resurection... they could show a few scenes during when Ripley is in a Coma being experimented on with Xeno DNA.. as she is infected and the DNA is running through her body, it causes her to have a Dream about her having Xeno DNA AKA Alien Resurection
Or we do not have Alien Resurection as a Dream only Alien 3, but at the end of the Movie, or the next (depends how many they are doing) have it that Ripley dies, but the company manage to optain her Hybrid DNA and then Clone her... or maybe she dies by getting infected by a Queen Face Huger, but she blows herself up? well Kills herself and this leads to Alien Resurection and would leave no holes as far as how she ended up with a Queen Embryo.. well one of the Clones..
Then Again depending how the movie goes, who is to say the company got the Xenos and Queen from Ripley? maybe they got them from pure Xeno DNA or a sample of a Organism.
These ideas i put i think would be the best way to tackle the franchise.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I only hope and pray they are not going the route that Alien 3 and Alien R are ommissed from the Franchise, or give us like a Alternative Dimention Universe take...
Like the Prometheus Comic has done with Prometheus leading to a Aliens vs Predator vs Engineers, this Comic does not have to be Canon, just a alternative universe sequel to Prometheus.
I think they are going the same route with Alien 5....
So that we have Alien -- Aliens -- Then we have two alternative universe and dimentional paths, one goes Alien 3 and Alien R and the other Alien 5 and what ever else after.
But as soon as they go that path, they can MILK IT and give us a Alternative Sequel to Alien, thus a alternative to Aliens, they could do the same with Prometheus, they could give us sequel after sequel to Alien 5 movie..
SORRY I DONT WANT TO SEE ALIEN FRANCHISE BECOME EXPENDABLES IN SPACE.
I would have had it that Ripley is not involved, or that this Alien 5 is set after Alien Resurection... how do they explain Hicks..... well have it that the company sent down Ripley and Newt with Face Hugers, but Hicks was not, and that somehow he was kept in Cryo Sleep.
But they are not going that route, as this Alien 5 happens after Aliens, and before Alien 3, in which case i think my ideas in previous post are best way to go.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Well as it looks like a movie would be done with Ripley, and even if Hicks is to be in it too.
One advantage is Sigourney to be fair has not aged 30 years, the right use of clothing i.e cover the neck area, and slight make up etc could turn back the years quite easy as Age has been kind to Sigourney..
As far as Hicks goes the advantage with Michael Biehn is he has suffered Acid burns, the make up for this could hide the Age of the Character somewhat.
So the explanation for Age could be not a major problem especially if the movie is not set directly after Aliens i.e if its a few years be that 5-10.
What is a problem is the continuity with Alien 3..... not so much Alien Resurection as that can be made to fit in as a sequel to Alien 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 if we going the Expendbles route lol
By way Arnie has signed up for another 3 Terminator Movies.... again sorry one more should be good enough...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think FOX screwed things up badly and now the people who know how to use and direct an Alien movie can fix what they messed up. I would like to see more Weyland-Yutani reverse engineer a Space Jockey/Engineer ship though like in the concept drawings and maybe even mention about an exploration into whom they are by mentioning the USS Prometheus crew and what happened all those years ago.
The Anunnaki were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, mighty men of high reno
To see Ripley in an Engineer suit would be cool.
The Anunnaki were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, mighty men of high reno
I like the idea of making reference the Prometheus mission but shouldn't that story be finished before any reference is made as we don't know what else is coming within the Prometheus story...
It is my understanding they are going to remove everything after Aliens, sort of what they did with the new X-Men reboots, basically eliminating some really bad movies and lore from the timelines. That there is no ACM, Alien 3 or Alien Ressurection in this time line basically, no dream, just them in space floating around after the events of Aliens and then they get rescued or crash on a planet then and shit hits the fan.
@Svanya; So basically Alien 3 and 4 will still exist has actual events within the Alien universe but be an alternate reality? I'm not sure i like that. In that scenerio, we would be forced to choose between the Alien 3 reality and the Alien 5 reality. I personally like Alien 3 so for me, assuming that i like Alien 5, it would be difficult to get my head round.
The OP is a good idea, but it's very similar to the dream sequence explination. Regardless, i just want Alien 4 to be burried and if that means Alien 3 as to be burried in order to bury Alien 4 then i'm willing to sacrifice 3.
So, dream sequence, mind control or whatever, bring it on, anything to delete that mess Alien 4!
The poster was good though!
Svanya, that does sound like an intriguing idea in equal measure... If nothing else it gets straight to the point! So by that recconing or 'ret-coning the crew of the Sulaco wake up after 30 + years as was the case for Ripley's 57 and they are older, there age differences can be explained as unusually long hypersleep. AndBishop no doubt is equiped with nan in-built aging mechanism...
@Necronom; No, not an alternate reality, just that the events of Alien 3 and up just don't exist basically a reboot from Aliens and on. It's also very unlikely they will ever make anything a dream sequence or mind control, that's considered very lazy writing and I would hope they don't do that. I'm not sure how they will do it tbh, and the ageing thing in hypesleep, dunno how that would work because Ripley was already in Hypersleep 80+ years after the events of Alien and she didn't age. Also, it was explained in Aliens that being in hypersleep longer than 80+ years is deadly, so really no idea how they will get around that either.
I really hope Bloomkamp does not intend on making a movie about the events of Aliens: Colonial Marines, which are canon, where Hicks is rescued and he witnesses Ripley's struggles during the events of Alien3 via secret rooms at Weyland Yutani. I am hoping they make a clean reboot of the franchise and eliminate all movies after Aliens.
I had in mind a sort of Jacobs Ladder horror film where Tim Robbins keeps leap-frogging from one "self reality" to another, combine this with some Total Recall futurist mind-f##k ideas and set that within Ripley within the Alien universe and she could be mentally slipping all ovr the place. One minute shes in Alen 3 then Alien 5, then Ressurection, then Alien 5 again, Alien 3 then 5 again and so on. Giving the impression that there are reality jumps going on that are personal to her maybe hints of Blade Runner and the Tyrell Corperation intercepting the Replicants memories, the same could be said here just its an actual human being who's being severely manipulated with and its those recorded memory tapes and expirences of Ripley that Hicks may have been watching. Similarly she also being made to watch his semingly life long experiences as well as Newts and even Bishops which would be an interesting concept as that would be familiar Replicant memory territory from Blade Runner.
However, they probably could just blank his memory like the whole event never happened and put itdown to a fault in his memory circuitry. Until Ripley finally jumps into the Alien 5 memory/timeline and it is at that moment that the rest of events play out in this seemingly new, fresh, revitalized reality and she as the rest of us finish the rest of the film in this new reality and the character is left wondering if she ever really was in those other events of Alien 3/Ressurection AT ALL which to her now as this new Ripley would appear as alternate realities just personal to her as they have all been encapsulated into the overall narrative and gradually explained away til ultimately forgotten. No time travel needed, not so much ignoring needed just some little acknowlegedment while those former events are just being buried inside the complexity of the new narrative. And likeTim Robbins in Jacobs Ladder when he does eventually skip into one of his realities he stays in it until the film ends, thus, in a sense disregarding all the other personal-realities he experienced along the way during the course of that film.
I'm all for what Svanya suggested may occur ith regards to all Sulaco crew after the events of Aliens are awoken into e new world of sorts not knowing what date or century there in even. Then, enter the jump into my proposaland take our characters upon the hypothetical ourney I just mentioned above as either the mainstay of the entire new film or just not take too long about it and get things explained quickly. I think the slightly slow-burn effect of a Jacobs Ladder/Total Recall (the original) mash-up with Ripley at the heart of it would be better as one film, almost an origin-film of the Origins if you like! The question is would there be enough life to get e few more stories/films out of it or just one more film and thats it? I would like to see at least two films out of this, one to set the slow-burn reboot scene that keeps canon continuity on track via Jacobs Ladder/Total (original) Recall comination but therecoul be room perhaps for a new trilogy set in a much older timeline, further into the future with newly introuced characters. Or perhaps they could just wind things up for Ripley and co. Also there is possibility for a 'shared universe' concept taking the franchise forward with Hicks and his personal war against The Company and the Alien, done without Ripley in the future as The Bourne Legacy was done without Jason Bourne himself just that the new plot was built up around him without actually seeing at all except fleetingly.
I like the idea of adding more to the canon to explain things instead of erasing. In that vein: each employee/prisoner was given a psyc evaluation to assess their IQ and ways of thinking; many were handpicked by Miss Vickers specifically for their ability to be manipulated. Shaw has the highest IQ but her beliefs hold her back. The trick is not minding. These humans ended up following David's agenda, who knew exactly how to trigger certain subconscious emotional responses with words/images. David used his words & ambiguity to influence perception & "trick" Holloway into doing "anything and everything".
The Company knows absolutely everything about how these people think (this is hinted in the Weyland-Yutani files). That's part of how they manipulate them. David was watching Shaw's dreams to find out EVEN MORE about her inner thoughts, her hopes, dreams, beliefs etc. All this data was taken into consideration when David began mind-controlling her.
David was almost programming these humans (as if they were robots) by analyzing their ways of thinking at very deep levels, then using his words to neuro-linguistically manipulate their minds. Certain words are loaded with connotations & alternate meanings. When a word is present consciously, so too are its related concepts in the conceptual category, albeit subconsciously. For example, the word "war" automatically brings to mind its opposite: "peace". David made a "poor choice of words" when he said "I never knew you had it in you". His double meaning had the wrong effect on Shaw's subconscious emotional states. She began to understand the true meanings behind some of the things he was saying. He had to quickly clarify that he meant her "survival skills". David is very "tricky" with his words. That's part of how Weyland corp mind controls their Employees into becoming Zombie-like mindslaves.
The Marines have it all wrong. The Alien is more like a parasitic wasp that deposits spores inside ants... The poor ant walks around in a zombified state until baby wasps burst out of its head. We're the ants.
Weyland corp took an interest in the subconscious for a reason. There's more to it than Resurrection and Alien 3 “all being a dream”. David was awake the whole trip. Androids don’t require sleep the same way Humans/Engineers do. It’d be more like “sleep mode”. Can androids dream? Hal 9000 asked Dr. Chandra “will I dream?” David’s interest in Shaw’s dreams may be much more sinister than we know. Do androids dream of the sheep from Schliecher’s fable?
The Company analyzed how David thinks as well (in the Happy Birthday video). They couldn't predict his behaviours afterwards based on that data alone... It's important to the higher ups to know how each employee thinks before beginning the process.
I believe there's a "Total Recall" element to things already, because memory is linked to the subconscious. Some dreams can be memories. The average person has more than one dream a night; however, we usually don't remember all of our dreams. That's why the dream visor tech was invented. Blomkamp's project would be like a "Freudian Nightmare".
David was practicing analyzing symbols in order to be able to interpret the hieroglyphs. Analyzing patterns of the mind will help him think symbolically enough to see the "big picture". Right now he can only work out the "broad strokes". It's much like Jacob's ladder, once you stumble onto some of the patterns/parallels you begin to climb the ladder. "Gods don't build in straight lines". It's a twisted set of parallels. Not like the ladder David pulls out: these parallels are related to the double helix strand.
This is how I would frame it: Ripley’s the only one to see the creature and survive, so they let her imagination run wild to fill in parts of the bigger picture when her hypersleep chamber malfunctions after ALIENS. The subconscious is very powerful. It can take in details even when the conscious mind isn't aware of what the “other side” is doing. The subconscious would be what Weyland uses to manipulate them, and to gain access to memory (which may be partially stored outside the brain...). You need both sides of the mind to be alive. Androids have no souls because they're incapable of dreaming; they don't possess creative free thought. No true subconscious. Don't need sleep.
The Company thought Ripley’s dreams might show them enough to understand the whole life-cycle, but Ripley was only extrapolating from what she knew. They're gathering data from dreams.
Ripley's nightmares were recorded by a Quiet Eye version of the Dream Visor tech, and after the Weyland-Yutani merger happens all hypersleep chambers are fitted with technology that automatically records dreams/nightmares. There's still some worth/symbolic value in the recordings of Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection. We can review them to analyze them for symbolism, or anything we might have missed. That's the most valuable data the android consciousness gets out of them... In the future a David is still barely alive because he's immortal. He saved Alien 3 & Resurrection from what's sometimes known inside the Company as "The Big Deletion", which affects memories as well as data files and timelines this tiime...
In dreams no one can hear you scream (except the androids who don’t require sleep). Ever tried to scream louder in a nightmare, only to realize you can't? There’s no air to carry sound. We don’t even know what the subconscious is really for... So yeah, it wouldn't be that's it's all a dream, or a false perception in my theory.
it will be a fork no doubt. there is no conceivable way that a3 and a4 will remain canon if they persue ripley hicks and newt.
CarynDelacroix - I like what you are saying and you offer some intriguing thought processes to consider. Your perspctives are similar to mine and it is interesting to ponder these themes with like-minded indiividuals. Necrom we both just got through explaining all that comparison to Jacobs Ladder jumping psycological realities as was the case for Total Recall (original) only for you to come back after all that detailed description given for you to say: theres no concievable way...! Theres always concievable ways if people try, and incidentally I'm not one to settle for the: it was all a dream explanation of for Alien 3 and 4 either! Which is why I was trying to explain to keep them both in canon by making Ripley think she had a psycologicl break/psycotic episode and was having paranoid delusions of being in other places and personas-personalities at the same time as Ripley was having nightmares in Aliens and Sarah Connor was in Terminator 2 special edition. If you watch Jacobs Ladder you'll see what I am getting at. Tim Robbins character in that lives at least three distinct different lives if I recall ( or Total Recall ) correctly! And all the time throughout the film he is struggling to understad which one is the real 'him'.
Ripley would think she has lived other lives before like a person with multiple personalities disorder until she is back in the Alien 5 Ripley persona and she would just stay there. If you watch Wolverine in the X-Men: Days of Future Past he remebers all the multiple events that occured before and in some ways so does Xavier but Wolverine now carries the knowlege of both timelines within his concious/subconcious. It is subtle but it is there. Much like the revelations to Douglas Quaid about his alter-ego Hauser in Total Recall. He had the knowledge that he had lived two lives, two personalities, two destinies - thats all we're saying...
@HyperNova - I'll have to watch Jacob's ladder soon. I'm totally thinking it could be a little like that. In some ways we could even take Ripley's time in the Nightmare Asylum in the old comics into account with this theory, which could help explain how the universe splits into parallel realities based on her possible destinies after ALIENS. In one version of "Ripley's story" she goes to an Asylum & thinks she's going crazy. In another she goes to Fury 161. The twist would be that all the nightmares are at least partially real. Almost dealing with the nature of perception and consciousness itself as well. I believe there are clues that point towards the importance of the brain/mind behind the recurring head symbolism, as well as the idea of "tricking" the brain in various ways, "not minding that it hurts". Pain lets you know you're not dreaming, so the trick might really be not minding.
It might be sort of like the age old question about trees falling in the woods...If no one perceives the tree falling, did it actually fall? If Ripley doesn't remember any of Alien 3, did it actually happen? If Resurrection is a nightmare about Death & Resurrection caused by a malfunctioning hypersleep chamber alternating between two states, then does that make it real or not real? I want most things to still matter, which is why I've tried to take all the data into account. You'd still need the "real"/organic side of reality, it's just that it wouldn't be "only flesh and blood" (Mr. Potter).
The key might be in the new trilogy of novels, which I partially base this theory on. There are some references to Prometheus but you have to be willing to accept Ripley was woken up between Alien & Aliens, sent to a mining colony on LV-228, then had her memory of those events erased before re-entering the cryochamber. OR you could do what the book repeatedly hints at and perceive it as a nightmare (Ripley questions if she's still dreaming or not in book 1 Out of the Shadows before her memory is erased). Ripley 8 can only remember Newt in nightmares.
In hypersleep you're in the hibernation state, which itself is like dying a little. Since no one died aboard the Prometheus, Vickers had David wake them up. We see this link between death and hypersleep. Sometimes when you enter the hibernation state it's like you're both alive and dead at the same time. Like schrodinger's cat, quantum states of superpositioning. Hypersleep was risky in the early days. You could slip into a "sleep like death". Being awake or dreaming means you're still alive.
When you're in that deep of a sleep you're at the mercy of the machines who are tricking the body & mind into staying alive. The body is just barely alive. The Alien itself may be able to enter a hibernation state, however, androids don't think/sleep that deep. In Sea of Tranquility (the second novel in new trilogy) it's implied Aliens are more than physical beings. They can follow you into your Nightmares. If you allow yourself to die in a dream it can mean "Game Over, Man. The end". You end up dying in real life.
Ripley 8 becomes one of Ripley's possible destinies. What's unique about her is that she's an outcome that lacks Ripley's true personality, and soul. The clone is immortal after her Resurrection (has better regenerative capabilities than she knew) but she will never have a soul. She lacks the memory/experience that made Ripley who she was. Part of what Weyland considers the soul.
Ripley 8 finds a way to trick herself back into Ripley's story. She could't let herself die in the symbolic Nightmare that was Alien 3, so her subconscious conceived Resurrection as a cover story: a way to trick herself out of the Death dream. Her mind needed a reason to come out of the death dream (because when Ripley's mind died in the Nightmare it was tough to recover). Her mind needed to believe that's what was possibly happening while the cryochamber malfunctions as the fire starts aboard the Sulaco. In Alien 3 we're presented one possible incomplete version of things. A Call was sent into the deepest levels of unconsciousness to wake Ripley up.
The android Call is kinda like "customer service" sent from MOTHER to make up for her past mistakes. Call herself was created free: she's able to dream. She was almost sharing her dreams with Ripley 8 in Resurrection. After they get back to Earth, Call turns to Ripley and says "I hate to break this to you Ripley, but you're still in hypersleep. The chamber is malfunctioning. We're not safe. You need to wake up now". Nothing is safe down there. Call was "sent in" to stop things...She hacked FATHER as part of her secret mission, directed them back to Earth herself, where a Gateway was established that will shock Ripley's mind back to life, and carry her consciousness into Alien 5. Ripley almost has two personalities now; she remains connected to the ALIEN thought collective in the Underworld but is consciously unaware. When she awakes after ALIENS she has knowledge of all these things that apparently never happened. It fades in memory as her story continues, though.
They entered what Weyland would call the Underworld (of Greek mythology). "We're the gods now", but Weyland is more like Hades than Prometheus. Ripley is between life & death when they find her. The classic Alien isn't dead, just sleeping. A very deep sleep that's similar to death. So, when Ridley says it's dead he isn't lying. It just needs to be woken up. Peter Weyland may still be around. Ripley's daughter may have been dragged against her will to Weyland's Yacht in the Underworld... Weyland has control over many things in the deepest levels of human subconscious, outside of conscious awareness/perception. Only androids perceive it
Hi folks, it's my first time posting here. I love this site and your ideas and thougts on the franchise are amazing and intriguing. In realtion to getting over the problem of not dismissing Alien 3 and Resurrection how about this?
Ok so this is Ridley Scouts universe after all and he is producing this film after directing Alien: Covenant. Maybe if there is a rival company to Weyland Utani that specialize in genetic engineering, like the Tyrell corporation in Blade Runner. They know that WU are after the alien/derelict and are trying to stop them, or get there first. While the Sulaco is on it's way back to earth they board the ship and rescue Ripley, Hicks and Newt. They replace them with replicants that only live for a couple of weeks since they are the leading manufacturer of replicants. They also copy the survivors conciseness to the clones (the issue with the replicants in Balde Runner was that they were self aware but expired after 5 years) as they got word that a WU ship was designated to meet up with the Sulaco half way on its journey to earth to obtain the specimens Burk was supposed to get. Plus Bishop would report everything back as well.
When Ripley wakes up she is told that she does have a family and that Burke lied to her about her family to break her spirit and to manipulate her into going back to LV426 because she would have no reason to stay. She also discovers that her great grand daughter is on the board of the Tyrel corporation and they've been watching WU ever since the Prometheus mission. This would explain why the Ripley in Alien 3 believes she is Ripley, she is a perfect copy with fractured memories due to the crash on Fury 161.
It would also flesh out a corporate war story and the rush for the alien technology. It could also be a factor that the Ripley in Alien Resurrection is number 8 because they kept failing due to the fact that they were cloning her from perfectly cloned d.n.a from dead hair. They were distrated because they were trying to seperate human dna from alien dna.
20 or so years later she is living the life she deserves with Hick and they raised Newt togerther plus have a few more childern in their teens. They are living on a remote private world and they're identities have been changed to protect them.
Ripleys great garnd daughter askes them for their help. They have learned the derelict withstood the nuclear blast in Aliens and that WU have finally transported the derelict to a sectret facility near LV 426. They are already weaponizing the zenomorphs so she come's out of hiding with Newt and Hicks to stop them. It's the only way I can think of how they would pull it off without dismissing the other two movies.
It would also explain the age issue, they could use CGI or make up for when they wake up to make them look younger, they did it with Jeff Bridges in Tron Legacy plus it would set up the franchise for Newt to carry on fighting the aliens and Weyland Yutani.
Well i did a massive reply... thought posted it but its gone.. darn it.....
forgot what i was saying too... here goes as good as i can... yes Zogar, some very good ideas and i think this would be a ideal way in order to cover Alien 3 and Alien R and still do a Alien 5.... Blomkamp had said his Alien 5 would be set right after Aliens his concept work seemed to show this.... seemed he intended the company find either the Derelict or Crashed Juggernaught from Prometheus... (but Alien 5 seems to been changed a bit since). But Blomkamp said that his Alien 5 would not take Alien 3 and Alien R out of Canon
How? who knows... but it seems now they could be taking them from Canon but your ideas could have worked...
Ridley has hinted before at connection to Blade Runner, but this was passed off as just rumour or a comment that was a red herring.... but they Weyland Viral site and extras to Prometheus did have the Tyrell company named... and the Tyrell Replicants could be a threat to Weylands Sythetics....
If we look at his movies Blade Runner, Alien and Prometheus we can see connections between the AI Characters.... especially between Batty and David... even Weyland had a connection to Batty as they both wanted to meet their creators for more Life....
As far as Age goes.... Sigourney looks young for her Age, and they would have had to do a little make up and CGI overlay to make her look younger still and with Micheal Biehn well he has Acid Burns and so effects make up can take care of that.... HOWEVER..... having spoken to a source i have... it seems Alien 5 has been changed from what was planned and is now set over 20 years after Aliens and thus they can cast the older Weaver and Biehn.
It appears that the ideas for Prometheus Trilogy have been changed so that Alien 5 can tie in and not step on its toes... i did give a full explanation but my post never posted..
But i have covered it in another Topic and will make a Topic about what it seems maybe has gone on as far as Planned ideas for Prometheus.... and Alien 5 and now how they are going to be both changed to tie in together.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think as you was saying the plan was for Alien 5 to take place after Aliens... the concept Work shows Ripley and Hicks not looking much older and no signs of Newt.... this movie was a idea that Fox liked.... and one that Blomkamp was pushing out but he only had fleshed out ideas and he had no DRAFT! He was at the stage that Ridley and Fox was with ideas before they gave it to Spaights to make a draft....
Ridley had seen Blomkamps Ideas...
* Which including the company getting its hands on a Juggernaught.... be that the Derelict or one from Prometheus that crashed. or another on LV-223.
*We see ideas of different forms of Xeno Organisms.... so either Experiments on Xeno DNA, or the Goo. Or finding different Cargo of Eggs or Goo....
*They also had concept showing what looks like a Mutation or a Egg Morph idea going on.
*They had Ripley connecting with a Space Jockey/Engineer Technology that looked like some work done by Carlos Huante for Spaights Prometheus draft Alien Engineers.
However Ridley said that they had to sit down and change some of the ideas as they stepped on the toes of where he was going with Prometheus.... which must be as far as Engineers Tech, and connection to Goo and Xenos. So some ideas had to be changed... this was at a time after Ridley had a Final draft for Paradise Lost October 2014
We then had Alien 5 put on back burner.... then news of Prometheus Paradise Lost getting a Green Light, this then changed to Alien: Paradise Lost and then to Alien: Covenant with a new Synopsis and a change in what the movie had seemed to be about as far as information about Paradise/Paradise lost over the years...
We seem to have New Travelers... a Colony Ship that is looking for uncharted Paradise but find a place that is Dark and a Scene of Disaster... and only a Lone SYNTHETIC David... which seems to point to more than Sythetic... Ridley said they had big plans for how David gets back together and this seems more than him being re-attached by Shaw... but weeks before this supposed big idea that he cant talk about... he said she would slowly put him back together.
What happens to Shaw, these Engineers, the answers? everything Ridley had said about the movie pointed towards this... towards getting to Paradise to find answers Shaw would not want to hear and a Dark World and Agenda as these Engineers are not God, and not benevolent and they never wanted to meet God in the first movie, (Engineers they met) but they will in the next... Rappace even hinted at Devil and Hell, and Ridley recently went on about Paradise Lost connections...
This all changed weeks latter with the Alien: Covenant name change, and now they are going the back end way to Alien, Shaw and the Engineers are No where to be found.... but latter Ridley confirmed Shaw plays a little role...
We then had news of John Logan doing a re-work of the draft, and a pushed back Production and Shooting and Release dates from Jan 2016 Shoot, May 2017 release to now a March/April Shoot and October 2017 release...
Just after this news..... Micheal Biehn drops a BOMBSHELL.... he claimes Alien 5 was set 20 odd years after Aliens and it would lead to Newt being the new lead Character taking reigns from Ripley.... when the concept work ommitted Newt and showed a Ripley who was not 20 years older unless she is in Cryo Sleep?
Biehn went onto say that Alien 5 is set thousands of years after the Prometheus movies... Alien Prequels and thats how he was told they was....
Alien Covenant can not be set thousands of years before the events of Aliens and Alien 5 unless its a flash back to a time set before the fall of LV-223 and scenes that explain what happend to our Engineers and maybe more connected to Paradise Lost connections that Ridley is loosely connecting...
But the Covenant is also about a new Group of Travelers, who are incomming and that means after Shaw and Davids ship.... but how and when does this happen... was the Covenant out on a mission prior to Prometheus? or after? If it detected the SOS of Shaw and thats how they found out about Paradise would they not be cautious?
It seems they was expecting to find a Earth like World to Collonise, surely they would tell the difference between such a World and a Dark World where Disaster has occuried?
So maybe indeed Alien Covenant will be set way after the events that happen between Prometheus and Alien Covenant... Covenant is a movie where the Travelers land on a World after the Aftermath caused by David.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
OK found what i Originally posted... basically same as above... i had it on a clipboard.. lol
Welcome aboard and very interesting ideas.... absolutely good ideas....
Ridley is fond of Alien and Blade Runner and there are similarities between them as far as AI, expecially between Roy Batty and David 8, David is Synthetic and Roy is Organic but they are both similar and have similar asperations (Wents to be made Human to a degree) but so did Peter Weyland also have some same asperations as Roy Batty (Too meet Maker for extra Life). The Weyland Files Viral site and other extras had hinted at a connection to Tyrell Corperation within the Alien Timeline.... and that Weyland Company could face a threat of competion between its Synthetics and Tyrells Organic Replicants....
So your idea could work and indeed there was rumours that Ridley could tie in Blade Runner and Prometheus some how down the line but this was dismissed as rumours a long time ago..
So yes a possible way to tie them in could work and your idea could allow for Alien 5 and have it not dismiss Alien 3 and Alien R..... Blomkamp did say he intended to carry on after Aliens and his movie would be set after Aliens but it would not de-canonize Alien 3 and Alien R, it seemed he had a way to carry on with a movie set after Aliens but that would not rule out Alien 3 and Alien R..... HOW? he never let on..... but a idea as you have sugested would indeed allow this to happen.
We have to remember with Alien 5 all Blomkamp had was a idea... some concept work and ideas of a outline of a Plot, he had not made a complete Draft to the movie.... he was basically at the stage like Ridley and Fox was with Prometheus as far as ideas before these was passed to Spaights to then do a draft..... So since Blomkamps ideas, he sat down with Ridley and FOX and had discussed the sequel to Aliens, and Ridley and FOX liked what they was hearing but Ridley was then given the role as Producer and had some ideas changed because they would be stepping on the toes with ideas Ridley had as far as Prometheus sequels and maybe Alien Origins and Engineer Tech....
so they would have changed a few ideas, to not tred on the toes of Prometheus.... which is where i feel that FOX and Ridley liked some ideas posed by Blomkamp and inturn they have decided to go back to the ideas for Prometheus Part 2 and 3... and now somehow add some more ideas so that this Franchise can loosely connect to Alien and give answers and also lead up to and connect to Alien 5..... and comming in from the back end...
A lot of hints and clues seem to be the case, that they had this idea of Prometheus.. and how to loosely take it to Alien... along came ideas of Alien 5 and seeing how this was gaining more interest FOX and Ridley then knew they would have to make Prometheus Franchise a Alien Prequel one and connect more dots that can lead to Aliens and i believe Alien 5...... They could have had Prometheus Planned out as a A-C in ideas.... but now i think they are going to throw in a D-E that connect to Alien (past) and Alien 5 (future) and sow seeds to these movies by throwing D-E between A-C
Basically taking the idea of Prometheus Trilogy A-C and cutting B-C up, added bits to it to link to Alien and Alien 5 and then recut it in a kind of Machette Cut if you know what i mean...
How... well i think the clues are there... they are comming in the back end.... and Micheal Biehn has left some big clues, because he said that Alien Pequels will be set thousands of years before Aliens..... he also said Alien 5 will be set 20 odd years after Aliens and that Newt is going to be taking over the reigns from Ripley.... 20 plus years latter means they dont have to worry about how old Sigourney looks she looks good for her age, and bit of make up and CGI overlay can make her look 10 years younger as for Biehn well he has Acid Burns so that can be covered with effects make up.
But we know about Alien Covenant... how can it be set thousands of years ago? Ask yourself this it cant be, unless time travel? How can they find David and highlight SYNTHETIC as if this is important? Ridley has big suprise and plans for how David ends up but he will not say what.... David on his own... no Shaw.... what happened? And a new Ship comming in... how did this ship find Paradise? if the ship followed David and Shaw or picked up a signal then they would know about Death on LV-223.... but they are going for a place they think would be Paradise.. but it wont be..
What of the Engineers? what of the hints Ridley said about and hinting above the Engineers? is all this forgoten... what about links to Ripley that he cant get into.... think about it Alien was set 28 years after.. how can Ripley be involved? And this Covenant Ship... when does this arrive in Paradise?
We have to assume Paradise is far away, it would explain why we dont get much contact from our Engineers.... Prometheus was the Elite of Ships in the company the Viral site praises Prometheus class ships as being the future of travel..... Ridley even said they are technically better than the Nostromo..... so if Prometheus was at the time the Top of the Rang ship... (if it was not then would Weyland want to go on a faster ship instead as he had not long left?).
So if it took Prometheus 2 years to get to LV-223, then how far is Paradise? surely its not relatively close? surely by the time of Aliens the company knows little about Paradise? or why go to LV-426... so this Covenant ship is just a colony ship.... how does such a ship end up vastly futher than LV-223, unless the journey takes many many years...
This part of the Plot is set way way after Prometheus, and maybe even Alien....
You see i think Alien Covenant will be split into at least 3 plots... one will run paralell to Prometheus Time Line... of events... Shaw and David on that Jugernaught but we may only see a bit of what happens... as i think we are going for a movie where Part 2 is set before Part 3...... i also think we shall see another Plot set thousands of years ago, regarding Engineers etc.... but again both these are loose... and only covered a bit and will be covered more in Part 3.
Then the 3rd plot is about the Covenant Ship.... this mission is set way after Prometheus... maybe even after Alien but set before Alien 5. A ship searching for a perfect world to colonise it finds a uncharted place far far away... it is able to do so because it is a advanced ship.... and also on a longer journey and combined means they can explore futher reaches of the Galaxy... and land on a place... that David managed to reach some 10,20, 30 years before?
This is how they can get around stuff like Shaw and Engineers and what was found on Paradise.. but these would be covered in the next movie...... Alien: Covenant will be set in a time line after these events i feel it is a movie made from the changes of taking into account the Paradise Lost drafts..... and taking ideas that conflicted with Alien 5.
The Ripley connection....... who knows... but i feel the way they are going now is the Juggernaught the company gets in Alien 5 is the Juggernaught David took from LV-223 this is what i think its now going to happen and a change made to Blomkamps which i think they was going to go the route of the crashed Juggernaught on LV-223 and not LV-426......
This thus allows them to side step and fit in stuff from the back end.....
As far as Alien 5 and not interfering with Alien 3 and Alien R i think Blomkamp had a idea... but i now think Ridley and Fox are going to wipe those movies from Cannon.... but Zogar your ideas could allow them to not have to do so.
PS these ideas... are what i have made from a source i had about Prometheus and how it was going and now how it seems they are going and me then logically peicing this togother.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I'm glad you found your post on the clipboard. There's nothing worse than writing something and losing it.
Wow, there is so much ground to cover and so many angles to come from, but you have things well in perspective. Fair play to you for doing this. Like you said you can only use what you have and join the dots together logically.
It makes sense that Fox want to focus on the Aliens and that they want to veer away from the engineers for a while. Since Disney own Star Wars now they need a sci-fi franchise they can invest in and they really don't want to mess it up. Let’s hope they learned from their mistakes and how they mishandled the franchise post Aliens era (AvP etc..). But it is in very good hands. It looks like they want to please the fans and are careful with how they are proceeding.
It would be cool if they went with the clone angle, they could even come up with a new company or a radical group that know what Weyland Utani are up to and are trying everything in their power to stop them. Surely other people read Ripley’s report and are watching behind the scenes. There could be new characters that want revenge for what happened to their loved ones on LV426. Plenty of other options to bring in an organized enemy of W.U. I also think that there is an artificial intelligence running W.U. And why are they so hell bent on finding the alien, it has to be linked to David and the Weyland family/empire. Plus what of Utani? How do they fit in and what do they specialize in?
It would be a shame if they dropped Alien 3 and Resurrection from the canon because even with their flaws I do enjoy them in their own right.
I am really interested to see what David will do and how he becomes whole again, he is one of the most fascinating characters in the franchise. I'm guessing that Scott will do something similar to the Elgin character in the Fire and Stone comic series.
In it Elgin is a synthetic and his human colleague that is dying from cancer injects him with the black goo to see its effects on synthetic life. Elgin mutates into and extremely powerful hybrid and destroys humans, predatosr and any aliens that get in his way. He becomes a god like in a way and seeks out his colleague that infected him. He gives him the goo so that he goes through the pain and suffering he experienced. Elgin turns out to be good in the end because he had empathy and was treated well by the rest of the crew before he was transformed.
For something like this to happen to David would be fascinating because David despises humans (his creators) and loves to play god, he wants to become a god and create life himself. He is sentient and feels but he doesn't have a soul and this hurts him. Elgen went through the pain of being organic and feeling emotions in Fire and Stone he condemned the human that changed him for feeling like he had a soul because when he would die, he feared emptiness and nothingness. David yearns for a soul and the goo which he seems to understand better that anyone would give him this opportunity.
Maybe the events on Paradise allow him to take control of his situation, he is a very good manipulator. Maybe David is this new monster that Scott was talking about. It could come about that Shaw and himself do find Paradise and the engineer’s creators but David destroys everything. The creators could be intelligent kind beings but David contaminates them with the black goo transforming them into hideous beasts (the fall, Paradise Lost) warping and destroying the chain of life/creation. This lets him play god’ “In order to create, one must first destroy”
It’s his logic to destroy the ones that created life, because in his eyes they abuse what they create, life is precious until you get bored of it or does not need you anymore and you decide to erase it.
"Want"? Not a concept I'm familiar with. That being said, doesn't everyone want their parents dead?”
To become god he must erase everything that came before him. It is possible that after doing this he sends out a message offering paradise that the Covenant crew receive and when they arrive he uses them to create new life in his own image. He does to the crew what he did to Charlie and Shaw, using the creator’s d.n.a. A number of queens are born and David has created the “perfect organism”. Maybe that’s why the Engineers had alien like sculptures in the Ampule Chamber, like humans keep crucifixes and other religious symbolism around. The creators are similar to the Alien but they are not hostile animals. This could also explain why in the movies the Aliens display intelligence (cutting the power etc….) their ancestors were highly intelligent life forms.
Throughout all of this Shaw is trapped or hiding in stasis on the juggernaut. This could be another angle to link Covenant to alien 5. In Prometheus the Engineer was in stasis for 2000 years, a human could probably last 100 years. The juggernaut that W.U find has Shaw aboard and Ripley rescues her to get answers.
Forgive me if I went on a bit but I’m letting my imagination run wild here.
I suppose as time goes on more and more things will be changed and rumours quashed. There is a great opportunity here to do so much with the franchise, both by answering the big questions posed in Prometheus and by keeping the hard core Aliens fans happy.
In my mind its simple. Alien three and R are both cryo dreams "or nightmare" caused by an error in the cry sleep computer system. The cryo units malfunction causing Ripley, Hicks and Newt to age physically whilst remaining asleep. The Sulaco drifts off course and for twenty years She is stuck orbitting LV223 which is located not far from LV426. An error (it seems) has caused the central computer to find a near by planet and remain on autopilot for safety reasons (or has it????). A beacon has been sounding off over the twenty years but has gone unnoticed.
Finally after twenty years, a ship from a rival company picks up the becon and investigates. Upon awakenning the hapless three, the strange and horrific story continues as Ripley finds Bishops cryotube empty and no sign of the artifial friend.
Keep it simple.
Keep it creepy.
Dont try to over explain.
True fans will love it!
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