Important reading: Everything that explains \'Alien\' and it\'s connection to \'Prometheus\'.

oduodu

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Posted Aug-20-2013 6:12 PM

topic pinned

I am asking the senior members to post links to any media that explains the relation ship between alien , alien DC to prometheus. The star beast script to lovecraft literature etc and also what basic concepts ie canon that needs to be understood prior to reading posts on this forum. Please add anything that you might consider necessary. Please assist. Thank you I will also use this thread to keep record for myself of anything I might find interesting. You see in the passage of time who will remember the spiders web next to the holographic console etc. I just read today about a scene where Dallas and Ripley got sexual in the lifeboat. Never even heard of that before and I believe there are many thousand of fans out there who hasn't either. I highly recommend reading the Weyland Yutani archives and xeno alpha 07 s blog over there . I still have a long way to go !! Enjoy !!!

Responses

Svanya

Aug-20-2013 7:36 PM

NP Oduodu. I fixed the repeat threads for ya. :) Here is the [url=http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/alien_early.html] StarBeast[/url] script. It was used for 'Alien' and a lot of it's unused concepts are in 'Prometheus'

oduodu

Aug-20-2013 7:40 PM

How to get well informed?

 

This thread explains how to get well informed about the Alien / Prometheus franchise.

 

Very handy

BigDave

Aug-22-2013 6:26 PM

Well the Star Beast Script forms the backbone for the Franchise, but its not considered Canon, well the plot anyway.... Alien DC comics if thats what you meant? is not to be considered 100% canon, neither is AVP etc... But Ridley i feel will try tie up Prometheus so it ties into Alien Canon, i dont see him trying to reboot the franchise or make it that Aliens and onwards are not connected to Alien and Prometheus.... Another thing we may have to go by is the Original Movies... So just how Aliens is canon to Alien and gave us the Queen which we have to accept as the way Eggs come about, i guess we have to not take the deleted Morph Alien scene as 100% Canon, unless Ridley shows us in Paradise or Part 3 that this can occur.... Pretty much that we may have to ignore the Prometheus deleted scenes also...... As it appears Ridley may be redesigning the heads of the Engineer Race be that the Elders, to appear to be more sinister and Godlike and not as frail as they appeared in the Story board and deleted Scenes, maybe thats why they was removed..? What i am saying is what if the Elders or maybe they get replaced by another Race that are a bit like Engineers but much Taller and Menacing and we see Engineers too and establish they are merely slaves to the Elders or re-designed head beings of the race.... If its shown that a race of Humanoid 15ft+ Guys create 10ft Engineers to perform tasks for them and these 15ft beings are not frail looking... Then i guess we have to from then forget that the deleted frail Elder scene never occurred, we would then be given clues that that Ship that left the lonesome Sacrificial Engineer was carrying these revamped Godlike Beings and not Frail Old Engineers... Pretty much that maybe the Alien Franchise we have to not really take the deleted Egg morph scene as more canon than the Queen that took over from Aliens onwards....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-22-2013 6:34 PM

I Guess what i am saying is.... If Paradise shows that the leaders and creators of the Engineers are not frail, but indeed larger, this may also fit in more to explain difference in size between Space Jockey and Last Engineer. Anyway imagine, if they did revamp/redesign the Elders.... but imagine if the Elder scene from Prometheus deleted scenes was never released, and neither was the screens and photos... What we would see is a Mystrey, same as what those who see Prometheus on say TV who dont know about the movie and never see the deleted scenes or the photos of the Elders... They would be left with the Mystery.... who was on that Ship that took off after the Sacrificial Engineer walked to the Waterfall and drank/ate the Goo.... Was it more of his race, we would not know... Until Paradise, and if that showed us another race who was larger and that the Engineers was slaves to them, then indeed if there never was deleted scenes etc, this would be accepted as who the rulers of the Engineers are... By the same Token, anyone who watches Alien and Aliens and does not see or have any knowledge of the deleted scene showing the Egg Morph would only come to the conclusion that the Eggs are and can be laid by Queen Aliens.....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

oduodu

Aug-26-2013 5:02 PM

Posted 27 May 2015

 

#crazy idea 416. The egg started as something else .

I here speculate that the eggs on the juggernaut might actually be grown by the juggernaut or derelict.

oduodu

Aug-26-2013 5:34 PM

Big Dave

As far as Prometheus being canon to the rest of the Alien franchise is concerned: it doesn't matter to me that much. It is HOW Prometheus relates to the alien franchise that concerns me.

Because then reading the Starbeast script knowing about the Mountains of Madness  and knowing about the Necronom IV Dark Star etc. (in other words any literature that has a possible importance in understanding the creation of Alien)  would make sense to me.

 

Otherwise what is the point ??

 

 

  

BigDave

Aug-27-2013 8:09 AM

What Ridley meant by moving away from Alien Franchise and indeed that any sequel would move even further away from the Alien as in traditional sense is... Originally the reasons for doing Prometheus was as follows.... Ridley wondered why no body ever in all the Alien sequels ever touched up on... a) The Space Jockey Pilot, who was he where did he come from? b) Why was his ship carrying the Cargo of Eggs? Which when you answered those you would make the connection between the Space Jockey and Xeno. Prometheus started out pretty much giving us the answers that the Space Jockey was a Ancient Humanoid Alien being called Engineers and that they had played a hand in our creation, using a Sacrificial Bowl that contained nano bugs that consumed the Engineers DNA and then would pass it onto what ever Organism they then bitten and injected Engineer DNA into. This plot then had the Temple but it was set on LV 426 and the Temple had cocooned walls, and Eggs. It did not however explain the connection with Engineers and Xeno, or the Sacrificial Bowl. This plot Ridley felt was too Alien, it had traditional Face Hugers and Xenos, it had new breed of Xenos (David got Shaw Face Hugged with traditional Chest Buster, and also Holloway infected with a new breed of Chest Buster). So Lindeloff came in and changed things and toned down the Xeno connection, removing any Xeno Organisms and Face Hugers. Changed the location of Prometheus from LV 426 to LV 223. What Ridley meant when he said the franchise steer away from Alien, is that the final draft and shooting of the movie, they decided not to show or include much Alien DNA... And concentrate more on the Engineers. Orginally the movie was just as much about the Xeno as it was the Space Jockey. But final Prometheus was about mainly the Engineers, with enough clues to link some connection to Xeno-Esque Organisms and the ultimate Xeno connection was that via series of events with the Goo in the Urns leads to Shaws Baby that has a strong connection with a Face Huger (it essentially is a new breed of Face Huger with same Purpose)... and that this new Breed Face Huger contains Human DNA and that it goes onto Face Hug a Engineer and we end up with a Deacon Chest Buster that clearly resembles a Xeno, but it has many Human DNA traits. When Ridley meant that the future of Franchise will go further away from that of Alien. He means that any sequel he would like to further explore who these Engineers are, where did they come from etc. This is why David refered to them comming from Paradise and that Shaw wants to go where they came from and not back to Earth. Its why maybe a lot of Engineer scenes was deleted so that Ridley can keep more Mystery about the Engineers so that he can answer those in Paradise and that also he may tinker and redesign both the look and the Agenda and Purpose of the Engineers. Ultimately Ridley is making Prometheus to be 100% Canon to Alien, by that the AVP movies do not happen before Alien in the Alien movies timeline and thus Canon. But Prometheus does.... Peter Weyland is the founder of Weyland Industries and creator of the Androids that will feature in all the Alien movies. The Engineers are connected to the Space Jockey and they have some connection with the Xeno, and it is there Engineer Race or even some race who created the Engineers who ultimately are responsible for the Xeno getting on LV 426 via the Derelict. However we wont get spoon fed how and what connection.. But i do think Ridley will by the time he has finished with the franchise he will give more clear clues to how the Xeno came to be, and how/why the connection with the Engineers, it may have and keep some Mystery but i am sure 100% Ridley will answer it... He knows some fans will want it kept secret/mystery but he knows whats worse.... finding more clues to the Xeno and Engineer/Space Jockey connection and Origins... Or leave it unanswered and then what 10 years time or longer and maybe after Ridley has retired or even passed away... If there is still a massive unanswered question regarding the Xeno Orgins, Fox will know there is $$$$$$$$ to be made and nothing will stop them releasing a Prequel that shows us where the Xeno came from and it would be a movie that Ridley would have no control of influence in what so ever... It could even go as far to say the Predators created the Xeno and the Engineers Stole it and open up a AVPVE movie Franchise... You see Ridley thinks of Alien as one of his babies a favored project of his, that as he never got to work on the sequel we got to see the Queen and if that was something Ridley would not have done (he likes the ideas as made sense) but if he had control over the sequels maybe he would never gone the Queen route.... When he finished Alien, maybe at times he had ideas of how he would have taken the Franchise before Aliens came out or even after wards... But as he never worked on the project it evolved from his idea in Alien to then ideas cemented by James Cameron. Ridley now has a chance to control a part of the Alien franchise thats not been touched upon as far as direct Canon to Alien... so i.e not the AVP movie connections. What we dont know if we throw out AVP movies, is.... and was. 1) Where did the Xeno come from? 2) Why did the Space Jockey have Eggs on his ship? 3) How did Weyland Yutani come to be... plus these have been answered slightly but can be expanded on. 4) Who was the Space Jockey, where did he come from? 5) Who founded Weyland and created the Androids. Ridley has chance to further explore 3+4+5 and he can also to some extent explain 1+2 and thus put his official Stamp and Ideas into the biggest Mystery of Alien and thats who the Xeno are? where are they from and the same for the Space Jockey race. Because if he does not to some degree then the door is left open for Fox to exploit long after Ridley has gone or has finished with movies, and then some one else could come along and explain the Origins of the Xeno in a way that would make Ridley turn in his Grave, and a way that would upset those who wanted to keep it a Mystery. And they could also then revisit and change things about the Engineers in future that would go against what Ridley had worked hard to explain in Prometheus and Paradise. Ultimately while not being spoon fed, more clues would have to be made to Explain the Xenos-Engineer connection. Remember the opening Scene does not say Earth, the movie does not spoon feed explain that from the Engineer Sacrifice that Mankind was created, its only when the pictures of Giant Beings in Ancient Culture with Star Map that leads to LV 223 and then the DNA Match Shaw makes do we get the picture. Its not like we see scenes showing Mans Evolution, and showing Engineers visiting Ancient Man an teaching us stuff etc.... as we can gather this purely from the findings of Shaw and Holloway. Like we see a connection between the Urns on LV 223 and the Xeno as they seem to have a DNA Connection... And i think via more vague and ambiguous clues and maybe less so, we can find out how the Urns and Xeno are connected... i.e Does the Xeno come from the Goo but used differently? Does the Goo come from the Xeno or its Ancestor? Ultimately the basics behind Prometheus plot is to 1) Show us the Space Jockey and Engineer are connected and they or their creators had hand in our creation and development. 2) The Engineers/Space Jockey have a connection with the Xeno, and some of there Race had for some purpose been behind the Derelict and its Bio Weapon Cargo.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

oduodu

Aug-27-2013 4:20 PM

Big Dave

Hi there

Thanks for your responses.

Alien dc = Alien Directors cut.

Then would you say that knowing what was behind the creation of Alien is necessary to know as to understand what Prometheus is about? If I didn't know about Alien and the rest of the franchise would Prometheus matter to me at all? Would it then just be another movie that made very little sense and would be resolved in the sequel?

The purpose of this thread is so that I can post its link and save newcomers all the time of finally realising that there is far more to Prometheus than just the engineers and it is related to Alien but more importantly how it relates to Prometheus and what literature and videos can aid in my understanding of this.

 

Well what has been said so far is already very insightful to me and should be to any newcomers.

I will later add links to threads that I feel could be helpful to newcomers. I am simply trying to save people all the trouble I had to go to understand the significance of Prometheus in the Alien universe.

oduodu

Aug-29-2013 7:04 AM

Once again Bigdave no one could have said it better than you did. Invaluable to me and to any newcomer.

 

Thanks

oduodu

Aug-29-2013 7:42 AM

Here is a couple of links of threads I started.

 

This thread explains what canon is

This is a link to a thread I started trying to establish if Prometheus has staying power like alien does:

Was that a spider’s web next to the control panel? Can spiders survive in the tunnels on lv 223?

This thread asks whether or not the virus was airborne based on a file released by fox

This link indicates that oxygen has an effect on the ampules in the ampule room : very garbled but have a look at it

This thread asks if there was any resemblance between the scream of the deacon and the scream heard in the holographic replay of the running engineers

 

The following discussion wasn't started by me but is an invaluable resource for anyone starting out here: 

Ridleygrams

Ridleygrams part 2

Ambiguity questions

Final canon debate

Alien origins discussion

This interview with Spaihts indicate that it may not have been Ridley's intention to move away from the xeno . Lindeloff's inclusion it seems might not have been Ridley's idea.

Starbeast script

Plot hole and answers thread

Prometheus lesser known deleted scenes.

Strange post-production edits; SJ Sacrificial cups changed to green crystals.

 

 

Well I hope this helps you as a newcomer.

 

Please also read the stickies in every section

 

 These threads i started but they arent relevant to this thread but just for recored keeping:

Matrix existence the norm ?

"NASA and the Vatican agree that is almost mathematically impossible that we can be where we are today without there being a little help along the way," Scott said.

Of what movie was the following reviews written ?

Space Jockey on screen representation: imposable ??

Prometheus analyzed by Reddit

so what is the black goo ??

BigDave

Aug-29-2013 8:09 AM

@oduodu Good posts... And yes there is so much stuff in the movie that may not be meant to show us anything at all, its just there for no reason to be connected with anything to do with the Engineers or Xenos... or LV 223. But as they are there they could be interpreted as having some meaning or clues.... My that i mean indeed the odd looking creature in the Island of Skye Cave Painting, but it could be a Cattle, and also yes what appears to be some kind of Spider Web as well... If they are intended to be connected or not, i guess is all part of the Ambiguity and Clues that means almost anything can be interpreted as a connection or coincidence. As far as seeing Alien or DC Cut and if it it necessary to Prometheus... The Answer is.... YES/NO Well you see having seen Alien Franchise then Prometheus makes sense more, we understand things about it... If you have never ever seen any Alien Movies and if your not a Sci-Fi movie fan... Then seeing Prometheus would be well a very odd experience, it would not make much sense and especially if they decided that there would be no more movies.... Seeing Prometheus without deleted scenes and if there was no more movies to be made and you never saw any Alien movie and never knew there was any connection... i.e never knew who/what Weyland was etc etc... Then the movie would make no sense what so ever, and would be a disappointing movie as far as a Plot that goes no where.... If they was never to make a Part 2 but you had seen Alien and others in the series and the more you knew about the Xeno, and wondered and noticed the Derelict and Space Jockey. Then even without a Part 2, you would have a understanding, that not only its movie about some Giant Bald Aliens who created us, tried to wipe us out and then messed up and killed themselves off. You would seen connections to the Space Jockey, Derelict and that the stuff they mess about with is connected to the Xeno and they either hand in Xenos creation or the Xeno had a hand in the creation of the Stuff in the Urns/Ampules.... Another way of seeing it would be if you never knew or watched Alien etc or any others, only just Prometheus then after they finish a Part 2 and Part 3 then the movie would appeal more and have a Plot that has been completed, and would not appear to be a movie that has no end of explanations. However if you see Prometheus and Part 2 etc but never Alien and if Paradise and Part 3 make more connections with the Xeno and especially the more connection is shown, you would then be thinking hang on whats going on here and at the end you would notice a connection with the Xeno. And if you have never seen Alien, surely unless you live under a rock you would notice the iconic Xenomorph even if its a case of.... "oh this Prometheus and sequels is connected to that Alien thing movie" It may make those who would notice the Xeno as is so Iconic but never seen Alien etc, go out and then watch Alien etc and make the connections.... That would depend if they enjoyed Prometheus and Paradise etc..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

oduodu

Sep-02-2013 12:52 PM

Oh yes

Dark Star

oduodu

Sep-02-2013 12:54 PM

A few notes

 

My theory is based on what I saw in Prometheus and Alien. As it (seemingly or hoefully) pertains to Ridley's vision and finally doing what should have happened many years ago: Ridley explaining the sj and the origins of the eggs and therefore the xeno. I do not think that it necessarily so that Ridley does not consider aliens canon but I think he draws the line there.

So the above mentioned is my take on the canon issue as I believe Ridley intended/wants it to be. I could be wrong but that's only my opinion on the matter.

The one thing that sticks in my mind is in one of the deleted scenes Milburn notes that the young hammerpede has translucent skin as the xeno had in alien. From the storyboard it was shown that the xeno was in its final stage of development before it reached adulthood where its skin would have been white (I guess) like it was with the hammerpede. I believe this to be part of Ridley's vision/intention but maybe he left that out so that the rest of the franchise could remain canon.

Don’t know the starbeast script seems to be the most relevant to alien. So the xeno was discovered.

 

 

oduodu

Sep-02-2013 3:11 PM

Please note that my theory will have many holes.

Especially as to what happened to the engineers on lv 223.

It is virtually impossible to make everything fit at the same time. Yes it may even not be a complete or encompassing theory.

At least it is the same place I can go to every time to expand on my ideas.

oduodu

Sep-02-2013 5:12 PM

My theory goes:

The engineers are a race that is enslaved by a superior race: the elders. The elders are under the super elders which are very much beings of energy . At least 5000 - 6000 years ago they reached the singularity to become pure energy beings. They themselves became like the beings that created them . They become like q of star trek.

With their disappearance the elders are left alone and they quickly mobilise to get all the technology and know how left behind by the super elders. A vicious power struggle emerges and they are immersed in total war leaving behind many seeded worlds that they forced the engineers to seed and re seed. So that they can test and grow different aspects of their own genome. As such the engineers are only left behind not knowing what happened on the worlds they seeded and only getting dna updated as deemed necessary ny the elders.

With the disappearance of the elders the engineers also break up into factions and the xeno the elders discovered that was initially a way to force them to obey the super elders. As the elders help the super elders approach the singularity they give genome improvements that allows the elders to stop being controlled by the xeno but now to conquer it as they are now physically able to beat and subdue a xeno at will. this is where humans come in : we were seeded by the engineers in service to the elders and when mankind reasches a certain level of development they extract the dna and add it to the elder genome: that is our purpose.

Therefore the engineers must now continue to worship and bow to the xeno's until they themselves are given the ability to conquer them.

2200 years ago and elder mission to drop eggs on an another elder controlled planet went awry as a space fight with other elders juggs causes stasis fields to malfunction. The elder lands on the closest planet to he can finds realising that the ship will be overrun with face huggers as the movement of the hydraulic ram that controls the telescopic unit will automatically be drawn back into the ship and could activate the eggs to open and the suit opens up in the same process .

But this suit is part of the chair and if he wants to leave he has to leave te suit to go to the entrance to the orrery where other suits are stationed so that he could possibly attempt to restore the stasis fields. By the time the engineer scans the ship he realises that many huggers are at large . He informs his high command of the situation and they tell him to back to his chair and into hibernation until a ship can arrive to help him. As he gets back into the chair to hibernate the telescopic unit emerges(and a facehugger getting a ride along from the lower level) and to his horror a facehugger jumps on his face just as the suit closes around him and he is unable to move. He is paralysed and by the time he awakens he realises he has minutes to live . He activates a warning through the computer and dies when the xeno emerges.The xeno goes down splits a hole in the floor and after the metal melts away he disappears through the hole sensing high level of nitrogen below.

As it was the elders who made the cave paintings and visited earth the engineers was well unaware of human society but they learned enough to know that they wanted to elaborate on the work of the elders and knew that the latest improvements could be applied to the humans and then extracted dna could be extracted and applied to themselves.

So they decided to take elder dna and infuse that to the humans so that dna extraction could be done and then applied to themselves. The humans refused to obey the lesser engineers and the engineers decided to implement a plan of planet wide wipe out of humans. They liquidised the xeno to drop that on earth and there after drop elder dna virus on the planet ensuring that there was a couple of humans left. The resulting creatures would be xeno'd and the dna extracted via the ampule xeno virus.

After 200 years the engineers realised humanity would not willingly cooperate and therefore decided to send a final warning but this engineer was crucified.

After finishing their research and adapt ion of the dna the engineers decided to leave for earth only to discover that someone had already poisoned their water and oxygen supply with the ampules that contain xeno dna virus. As to exact happenings on lv 223 with regards to the engineers: I given up to try and explain that , my big problem is what caused the holes in the engineers hyper sleep chambers ? If it was facehuggers where did they come from ? A queen ? Were engineers morphed ? How was the huggers brought to the Orrery to impregnate the hyper sleeping engineers ? Why was bob not impregnated ? Does infection occur via airborne or oral ingestion routes .

I believe something happened on the cargo hold because there was something that catches David's attention that he looks at.

Maybe bob was from a different faction and got himself into a chamber that would no be infected. So roughly An engineer form a loyal faction (bob) had slipped into the cargo bay and took an ampule and emptied its contents into oxygen and water supply system. The engineer that wasn't in hibernation yet (the pilot engineer) alerted all the other ships and their crews. He probably dropped an ampule after realising that they were infected (and got 2 drops on his face) or that bob in the cryo chamber has infected unknowingly. He just has enough time to put on the bio suit and the engineers from the other ships join him and they head for the Ampule room where they know they might possibly be safe from the infection if it is airborne .

So where does the screaming creature come from ? An engineer turning into a xeno ? Too little info.

Did worms become hammerpede and eat their way out of the engineers or did they get the little worms into them from infection like holloway did ? Maybe his sperm becoming big and swimming around his body and eventually becoming so big that they broke free ? They eventually leave the ampule room as the oxygen supply in the suits becomes used up only to be eaten alive from the inside by sperm growing to big ? Was it maybe an engineer turning into a xeno ? That chased them ? Then after they died the one nope .........going insane this is not solveable.

Wayland discovers a weak signal from a deep space probe. But when would this have happened ? Somewhere from 2040 - 2060 ? They send a android manned mission to investigate the source and discovers the derelict . However under mysterious circumstances the android mission is lost and nobody really knows what happened. The super God like being stepped in here . Wayland sends a follow up mission with Yutani close behind them. Yutani decides not to go to lv 223 as they pick up the beacon on LV 426 and experiences the first facehuggers on an android . They collect as much data as they can. After wards Wayland does the same and forces a merger with Yutani. After they compare notes they realise that the goo and the xeno are the same thing but they need a live specimen of the xeno on earth to properly analyse its dna so that they can remove the xeno part of the black goo so that they can reverse engineer the to get the substance that the sacrificial engineer drank at the start of the movie.

I think this is why they wanted a xeno on earth.

 

UPDATE: 15 April 2015

 

In short the engineers were once like us - were used by other engineers to be destroyed and reseeded so that the engineers could upgrade their own genome or of the elders above them.

 

 

BigDave

Sep-04-2013 9:56 AM

Some interesting points... Ridley had said of the Sacrificial Scene that this is not necessarily the only way the Engineers can seed there genetic gene pool... It its just how they choose to do so. And that the Sacrificial Engineer would be treated like a Mayan Sacrifice in which a chosen one is treated as a King/Prince for a Year and then they have to perform their Sacrifice to the Gods for the greater good of their own kind. I think this could be what Ridley is going for, that for some reason the Elders have to choose someone to be Sacrificed, but why is this a young Engineer and not a Elder? There must had been a purpose a agenda at the start of the movie, and why does the Elders look old and frail and yet other Engineers more young and strong. Could it be something in the Elders Gene pool thats defective and so they need Sacrifice of the Younger more clean/pure Engineers? And as you said about the Space Jockey, that yes the most likely outcome is that one of the sensors had displayed some kind of malfunction, something must have caused the Space Jockey to go and investigate the Egg Chamber and then he got Face Huged and after he woke up he would have known that his time is short and that he is doomed, and so he attempted to Quarantine the Cargo on a near by Baron Moon and set off a SOS to warn the others that the Cargo had became compromised. A heroic action on his behalf... But maybe only Heroic as far as for the Agenda and Benefit of his Race or Fraction... Chance are that he starts to get Chest Busted as his Juggernaut/Derelict enters the atmosphere of LV 223, as we can see that he has appeared to had kept his hands on the controls all the way until his death. As far as the LV 223 Engineers well indeed its hard to know for sure what of the Chest Bust Cryo Pods.... But if you watch the Hologram back, you see that it appears Bob was the last Engineer to go to his Pod...... This means he could have waited for the others to get in there's and then used this as a opportunity to infect the others and thus Sabotage the Mission. A interesting thing about the Space Jockey, is indeed we all know that there is inconsistancies with the size... Now the Space Jockey was supposed to be 26ft tall, and Ridley hopped the 13-15ft tops prop would look that size by using Child Actors in Space Suits as the crew of Nostramo walked up to the Pilot Chair.... But we could see from close up when they used adult actors that our Space Jockey was no more than 15ft tops.. Fast Forwards to Prometheus and the concept work and drafts was about a 12-15ft race of Engineers, that was then down scaled to 10ft tall... (size of the dead space jockey suits well about 9ft). Sadly again the illusion never worked as the Ghost Engineers actually appeared to be 8ft tall, and Bob well in some scenes he looks about 8ft mark but then in the Shaw scene he is revealed to be a measly 7ft 5" tall......tops... Maybe Ridley has explanation, maybe by removing the Elder scenes he can redesign them to not be frail and to appear taller. So we may get one Race who are 12-15 tall and another who are 8-10ft tall?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

oduodu

Sep-04-2013 10:29 AM

Bigdave Well the evil laughter is what concerns me?

By whom and why?

Almost like the devil knowing he is doomed making his minions sacrifice himself just for the hell of it.

I like the idea of the sj being an elder.

It explains the size and maybe also the differences of the size of juggernauts.

oduodu

Sep-04-2013 10:37 AM

I will here start working on my p2 theory.

For now: The main ideas for me is:

When will Shaw re attach David?

What will he do once he is reconnected?

 

If he entertains Shaw then what will they be able to learn form the available technology?

If they find an engineer will this engineer assist or destroy?

Finally I believe a God like being will step in eventually and assist Shaw - maybe she will meet her father again?

As Bigdave said: what the time frame or year will this happen in?

oduodu

Sep-04-2013 10:46 AM

P3:

WY merger and follow up missions ending with how they came to know about the base liquid the sacrificial engineer drank and the need to get a xeno back to earth. So that they can reverse engineer the black goo.

The movie ends with an android finding the holographic recording of the happening of the sj and how he crashed and maybe where the elders discovered the xeno?

Maybe the xeno were genetically engineered by the super elders and it wasn’t an accident the elders discovered them.

BigDave

Sep-05-2013 1:17 PM

Well we know about David and and Shaw as far as David being put back together again.... Well we have to assume she has done so before Prometheus ended as well can David take off and put Shaw in stasis (have to assume so) with his head separated? And yes we dont know how long it would have taken for Shaw to do that and find another Juggernaut and the time all this took, could have been long enough for the Deacon to had escaped.. But i doubt they would have the Deacon on board and also the Xeno usually took 24 hours to Chest Bust from when Embryo is implanted, so i doubt it would take Shaw 24 hours to get from escaping the Life Boat to finding David and resemble him. etc. As for Weyland Yutani and the LV 426 signal, i would assume as they did not seem to know fully the Xeno Life Cycle in Aliens, that indeed they do not encounter a traditional Xeno until after Alien.... In that Cain is the first Human Victim to a Xeno Egg, well as far as Mankind is concerned..... I mean ruling out any occurrence where Engineers may have Sacrificed Humans to the Organism, or that Shaw comes across one on her travels... If the company sends another mission to LV 223 which we have to assume they would most likely, maybe it would be a Android only mission who knows... but i recon if they go to show any such event in the series there would be Human Crew. And i think they would come across something that is not a traditional Xeno Egg etc, or if they did they would not be able to get communication back to Earth. They would go investigate then find Shaws SOS and then go to explore it, get in trouble all get wiped out... And by time Prometheus series is done, LV 223 must be destroyed so it leaves the Corps only having the LV 426 signal as the only thing left to try and salvage.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

oduodu

Oct-13-2013 6:34 AM

I forgot to mention that I believe that the engineers created the ampules as replacements for the eggs as to prevent the happenings of the juggernaut on lv 426. Safer way to transport and easier to drop. I believe the xeno in the mural in the ampule room is not a deacon but a xeno very close to the one in alien.

I apologise because there is no dude standing behind the crucified xeno. I still believe that there is a creature behind the crucified xeno. It may be a depiction of the engineer god as a bio mechanical representation of the being/beings that created the elders/super elders. 

oduodu

Oct-21-2013 4:40 AM

Links to confirmed scripts.

This is very important : Anyone who hasn't read the confirmed Alien Engineers draft from Spaihts Please do so ! As well as the confirmed Lindeloff draft If you haven't done so then you are seriously missing out.

It’s interesting that Fox wanted the script removed from this blog. It does reveal a lot about the initial intent by both writers. It seems a lot of chopping and changing was done at the last moment to really the make the movie over ambiguous. I think Fox wanted it that way. Lindelof’s draft wasn't that ambiguous. Here are the link to two threads I started with regards to the scripts:

This one asks how many scripts were released (Fake or otherwise)

 

And here I ask a few questions regarding the two confirmed scripts

The two things that now really bug me is that in both of these scripts the engineers are 12 - 15 feet tall and that there were no evil laughter in them. It seems that Prometheus really was butchered and many parts and showed out of sequence as it was originally was intended for.

I would kill to know whose decision it was to make the engineers 8- 9 feet tall in Prometheus?? Why was that done??? I think it was done on purpose. How much more would the movie have cost if they had to create engineers 15 feet tall???

I think a lot things were thrown in at the last moment to make the movie over ambiguous. Still I love Prometheus and it must remain. But I now doubt we will see a movie that has extended deleted scenes that will provide answers .

If they remake it could probably happen.

oduodu

Oct-21-2013 4:47 AM

So finally I guess I will have to do a lot of rewriting on my theories but now I can lay Prometheus to rest as I finally understand the true nature of the movie as in why it was made the way it was.

oduodu

Oct-21-2013 1:02 PM

Bigdave

Yes it is obvious then that they made many scenes fit even if they did not work so well. I still love Prometheus. But why did they not find a way to bypass that - like cgi if only for a few scenes?? I mean why change the sj size to such a degree that it really begs the question is this in the same universe or are they just doing this on purpose to create more confusion??

Another example is the helmet removal scenes.

In Lindelof’s draft the only time they removed their helmets was when Weyland arrived in the juggernauts cargo hold. They changed this in Prometheus and then releases an info file saying the black goo is also an airborne pathogen.

Same with the deacon mural.

All of this was just added to create more confusion and mystery and I am not so sure that they really have answers for those.

Because god knows I have racked my brains trying to find answers to the mysteries.

Prometheus is a mixture of the two confirmed scripts and seemingly a lot of very late changes coming in. I think they deliberately wanted to create uncertainty as whether  was actually in the same universe as alien. And accordingly the script changes and they throw a whole lot stuff in there at the end. I am not saying it’s bad it does show you that that is exactly what they (fox) wanted - controversy (because of uncertainty and over ambiguity).

If Spaihts draft was the one that Ridley wanted after many changes were made by Ridley then that shows that Ridley wanted to tell the story of the xeno and where they came from (squid like face huggers weaponised to become the traditional face hugger producing the xeno). He answered that. The engineers seeded mankind and wanted to punish them for exactly what I don't understand. So this draft shows what Ridley initially had in mind as he wanted there to be 8 different of eggs. In this script David indicates to Shaw that there is 8 stasis fields and that each field contains slightly different eggs. That's why I think this a draft from Spaihts after Ridley told him to make changes. So Ridley wad telling the engineer story and xeno story. Right?? But it simply wasn't ambiguous enough and would kill the mystery of the space jockey and the origins of the xeno. This is wanted Ridley wanted to tell. And in the process destroy what caused the franchise to be such a success. Therefore I am on no doubt that Fox stepped in said no. Because I think Ridley wanted to finish it but was not allowed to. I don't think he had any say in the matter.

So the ambiguity and changes in the Lindeloff script I believe was intended and as the filming began to finish Ridley saw that there still was too many clues given that fox probably wouldn't agree to it. So they really made it too ambiguous to protect the mysteries of the franchise. It seems than that the origins of the xeno as Ridley wanted to tell it was from squid like face huggers that was weaponised by the engineers. I believe that is why Fox asked Chris to remove the Spaihts draft as it really showed the story Ridley wanted to tell. He never moved away from the engineers he simply explained how the two met.

Maybe the engineers found the squid like face huggers thousands of years before and it doesn't mean that the xeno we know may have been around for a long time but this does show how they came to be. Maybe the stasis field of the juggernaut simply malfunctioned and a face hugger that was maybe able to go through thin crevices or underneath doors as it was the case for the squid like face hugger (of which the chestburster itself could squeeze through very tight spaces) and maybe that's how the engineer on lv 426 got face hugged. During flight a face hugger closer to the original squid like face hugger got loose - squeezed his way through the crevices and when the engineer went to investigate got him when he returned. He landed and then got chest busted and the resultant creature simply melted his way through the floor and maybe got trapped and simply excreted acid to melt the metal and disappeared below. Maybe that how he got inside the suit by simply melting and his way into the suit??

I think Ridley has given us the answers because he knows he is getting old. But Fox knew the damage that would have done to the cash making ability. Well that's what I choose to believe.

oduodu

Oct-21-2013 1:04 PM

Posted: 18 May 2015

 

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/

Start quote

“Their civilisation is millions of years old. Once, the Engineers expressed themselves as humans do, taking pleasure in music, colour and story, but they’ve long learned to see in more dimensions than we do. Their art and ornament exist on planes imperceptible to human senses. Their constructions look dark and grim to us; but the Engineers’ eyes see far more than our own. Individual Engineers live for a hundred thousand years. Ages ago their race abandoned sex and gender, reproducing by more abstract methods. In recent millenia they have ceased to reproduce altogether.”
~ Jon Spaihts’ “Alien Master Narrative”, script notes.

End quote

 

oduodu

Oct-21-2013 1:11 PM

So finally getting your hands on the shooting script will probably explain a lot of things. As to where the evil laughter came when the engineer sacrificed himself........

BigDave

Oct-21-2013 2:54 PM

I dont recall any evil laughter? All i see is moans of the Engineer as he consumes the substance and its broken down by it..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

oduodu

Oct-23-2013 10:36 AM

Bigdave When the engineer consumes the goo to sacrifice himself I can quite clearly hear evil laughter in the background or maybe you can confirm it for me ? I don t have a copy of p1 with me at the moment !!!!!!!

oduodu

Oct-23-2013 10:42 AM

Record keeping [Url=http://www.prometheus2-movie.com/community/forums/topic/28315&page=1]I want to link this thread here because the relevance of the 8 different kinds of eggs and also what the xeno evolded into and why[/url]

oduodu

Oct-23-2013 10:54 AM

[Url=http://www.prometheus2-movie.com/community/forums/topic/23187]This asks about evil laughter[url] [Url=http://www.prometheus2-movie.com/community/forums/topic/22849]And also this one[/url] [Url=http://www.prometheus2-movie.com/community/forums/topic/28421] This thread I started confirms there was no evil laughter as the sacrificial engineer breaks up[/url] [Url=http://www.prometheus2-movie.com/community/forums/topic/28420]And this thread I started confirms that there was no dude standing behind the crucified deacon[/url] This obviously means that some of my theories are wrong . Will reconsider.

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